Character Classes

So, one of my "wish list" items for BNW at some point in the future is to bring back the "class" labels. Except rather than simply being a description of the character, it would reflect their esper build. Each character would have a "default" class that would eventually change depending on which esper they predominately use for EL growth (or remain the same for hybrid builds, for the sake of simplicity). If you've ever played Seiken Densetsu 3 or Sword of Mana, it's basically the same thing.

Without further ado, here we go!

Terra
Mage (Base)
Battlemage (Bismark)  ---  Morph delay is shorter; Break and Storm cast faster
Black Mage (Maduin)  ---  MP+25%; all Fire/Ice/Bolt spells & Ultima cast faster
White Mage (Unicorn)  ---  HP+25%; all Cure and Life spells cast faster
Omega Mage (Tritoch) ---  Regen MP while morphed; Remedy and Regen spells cast faster
Red Mage (Phoenix) ---  HP/MP+12.5%; Cure (1-2), Fire (1-2), and Life (1) cast faster

Celes
General (Base)
Holy Knight (Ramuh)  ---  HP+25%; all Swords get some kind of bonus(?)
Dark Knight (Phantom)  ---  No dual-wield damage penalty; Merton and Demi/Quartr cast faster
Valkyrie (Crusader)  ---  Inherent Cover; Safe and Haste cast faster
Vanguard (Alexandr)  ---  Inherent Counter; Life and Regen spells cast faster
Magic Knight (Siren)  ---  Runic restores 2x MP; all Ice & Bolt spells cast faster
Holy Mage (Shiva)  ---  MP+25%; Holy, Merton, and all Cure spells cast faster
Cleric (Seraph) ---  HP+25%; Rerise, Remedy, and all Cure spells cast faster

Locke
Rogue (Base)
Fighter (Ramuh)  ---  Critical Attack rate up; all Swords get some kind of bonus(?)
Paladin (Kirin) ---  All Shields get some kind of bonus(?); Cure (1-2) cast faster
Thief (Ifrit)  ---  Steal always succeeds; Drain and all Bolt spells cast faster
Red Mage (Phoenix) ---  HP/MP+12.5%; Cure (1-2), Fire (1-2), and Life (1) cast faster

Edgar
Engineer (Base)
Alchemist (Siren)  ---  Status-setting attacks/spells ignore enemy stamina; gain elemental resistance from equipped weapons
Sentinel (Golem)  ---  Inherent Counter; Tools delay is shorter
Spartan (Unicorn)  ---  All Shields get some kind of bonus(?); Safe and Slow spells cast faster
Dragoon (Palidor) ---  Two-handed damage bonus is 75% instead of 50%; Haste and Float spells cast faster

Sabin
Monk (Base)
Shaman (Stray) - AKA "Stam-WOW" Sabin  ---  HP Regen rate is doubled; gain elemental resistance from equipped weapons
Godhand (Golem) - AKA "Slap-Chop" Sabin  ---  Critical Attack Rate Up; Blitz delay is shorter
Guardian (Terrato) - AKA "Schticky" Sabin ---  Inherent Cover; Sleep and Drain spells cast faster

Cyan
Samurai (Base)
Swordsmaster (Bismark) ---  +25% Physical Damage; Bushido delay is shorter
Templar (Kirin) ---  Inherent Cover; Cure spells cast faster
Vanguard (Alexandr)  ---  Inherent Counter; Life and Regen spells cast faster

Shadow
Ninja (Base)
Assassin (Phantom) ---  Critical Attack rate up; Pre-Emtpive Attack rate up
Shinobi (Fenrir) 

Gau
Hunter (Base)
Beastmaster (Stray)
Berserker (Fenrir)

Setzer
Gambler (Base)
Undertaker (Shoat) - AKA "Slotzer" ---  No dual-wield damage penalty; Doom and Poison/Bio cast faster
Pilgrim (Starlet) - AKA "The Bank"(*) --- Inherent Counter; Remedy and Regen spells cast faster
Cleric (Seraph) ---  HP+25%; Rerise, Remedy, and all Cure spells cast faster

Mog
Moogle (Base)
Druid (Shoat)  ---  Summon delay is shorter; Break, Quake, and Poison/Bio cast faster
Geomancer (Maduin) ---  Dance always succeeds; (?)
Dragoon (Palidor) - AKA "Mogoon" ---  Two-handed damage bonus is 75% instead of 50%; Haste and Float spells cast faster
Guardian (Terrato)  ---  Inherent Cover; Sleep and Drain spells cast faster

Strago
Blue Mage (Base)
Sorcerer (Zoneseek) ---  MP+25%; X-Zone, Dark, and Ice spells cast faster
Wizard (Shiva) ---  +25% Magical Damage; Stop and Osmose spells cast faster
Sage (Odin)  ---  HP Regen rate is doubled; Lore delay is shorter

Relm
Pictomancer (Base)
Sorceress (Zoneseek) ---  MP+25%; Meteor, Flare, and Fire spells cast faster
Priestess (Starlet) - AKA "Love You Long Time" Relm ---  Summon delay is shorter; Rerise, Remedy, and Regen spells cast faster
Illusionist (Ifrit) ---  Brushes may set image; (?)

Gogo
Mime (Duh)

Umaro
Yeti (Double Duh)

Tsk tsk. Accusing me when you and Mishrak are just as guilty. We've been slowly standardizing the names. (See: recent update, where I adopted Mishrak's names for Shadow's builds). Still, I won't turn down an attempt to standardize names beyond just "vig Edgar," "mag Strago," etc., etc.

The major issue I'm seeing here is that naming the build after one esper, with the base also being a hybrid, doesn't really match up with whag the builds really are. For example, something like 10/10 Terrato/Stray on Sabin is definetly a stamina build. Or, something like 7/7/7 Unicorn/Carbunkl/Maduin on Terra is a (bulky) magic build. Also, stuff like Siren vs Shiva on Celes is definitely nitpicking at build differences.

I know the above is kind of a nitpick. I also know that we're limited by whay can be put into the game. Just pointing it all out.

I'm on the phone right now, so I can't comment too much more. I definitely prefer keeping stuff like "The Bank" over something like Cleric or Gambler for HP Setzer. (What does Gambler even mean, as far as combat is concerned?). Also want to note that Phoenix Te/Lo should be White Mage, and that you forgot spd Relm.

I'll look at this again after hurricane evacuation. Later.

9 hours ago, BTB said:

So, one of my "wish list" items for BNW at some point in the future is to bring back the "class" labels. Except rather than simply being a description of the character, it would reflect their esper build. Each character would have a "default" class that would eventually change depending on which esper they predominately use for EL growth (or remain the same for hybrid builds, for the sake of simplicity). If you've ever played Seiken Densetsu 3 or Sword of Mana, it's basically the same thing.

You are doing the reverse of what Seiken Densetsu 3 does.
SD3 asks you to pick a label and by that determines what you can do better than before.
You look at what subset of skills that character does "better than average" and pick a label based on that.

Dunno about Sword of Mana's class system, did it even have one? that game was so easy a Lv1 char can almost oneshot the final boss.

Anyway, back to topic...

8 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

The major issue I'm seeing here is that naming the build after one esper, with the base also being a hybrid, doesn't really match up with whag the builds really are. For example, something like 10/10 Terrato/Stray on Sabin is definetly a stamina build. Or, something like 7/7/7 Unicorn/Carbunkl/Maduin on Terra is a (bulky) magic build. Also, stuff like Siren vs Shiva on Celes is definitely nitpicking at build differences.

These are loose guidelines rather than hard rules right now, obviously; you'll notice I've specified no numbers, and with good reason. Right now I'm just trying to get the idea out there.

Also good to see you here - I was worried about you the other day because I know you're right in that path of that thing. Stay safe, my friend.

P.S. I didn't forget Speed Relm so much as I decided that Speed Relm is effectively her "hybrid" build >.>

Yeah, fled with my family to elsewhere.

Hmm..I have little knowlede of this game's asm, so I don't know of this idea is feasible. Coming up with a system so the game can intelligently tell the player what build they're playing? Sounds like a fun challenge, but iunno if this idea will actually make it into the game. There are definitely a LOT of cases to consider with this idea.

Again, once I have my computer, I'll give more comments on the builds.

Well take care of yourself. Our prayers are with you.

I'm relatively new to this site and ID compared to most regulars, but I figure you - BTB and thzfunnymzn - are referring to hurricane Irma? I don't quite know what to say, except that I've heard plenty about the damage it caused in St. Martin - and that you will get through it alright. it's been quite the issue here... hope you will escape the worst of it.

OT: I'm not quite sure what the change proposed would accomplish - I'm speaking from a newcomers frame of mind here - in telling exactly what kind of build would perform best at what. This coming mostly from my disliked of the way Square tacked on 'classes' in the FF6 remake, but I do like the idea of your characters commiting to a certain build and having the mod reward (even if it is only cosmetic) you for that. Standardising build names is not a bad idea either. 

heads up for the FMJ refrence as well

We are indeed referring to Hurricane Irma, which Funnyman is directly in the path of. This follows Hurricane Harvey, which flooded out Houston (where Synchysi and I live).

The class system is purely cosmetic on the surface - I'm not about to start asking for class perks when we don't even know that the base idea is feasible, but it is something I'd definitely be interested in.

(Also, any FMJ reference was purely unintentional. I'm not even sure what you're referring to >.>)

My best wishes to Funnyman than - though I'm about one atlantic ocean away from it - I've heard plenty about the damge it caused so far. I can only hope whatever part of the US you're living in won't be affected too badly, though that's probably wishful thinking.

Offtopic: I was refering to Full Metal Jacket, though given that film is about 30 year old today I can't blame you for not regcocnizing the reference:)

I meant I wasn't sure what part of what I wrote is a reference to Full Metal Jacket. Like most people, I only know the scene with R Lee Emery >.>

Thanks for the prayers. We're all tucked in away from the hurricane now. Until one of our coders chimes in about the feasibility of putting build names in-game, I'm going to focus mostly on the standardization of build names.
 

So, one rather broad comment I'll make is that if this does get coded (Seibaby and D both jumped on it a lot faster than I thought they would), the logic would probably only be smart enough to check for the dominant esper in a given build at best. Therefore, it's prudent to have a name for every esper, even if it's only a small variation on the same build (i.e. Shiva vs. Siren Celes). Things like 25 Alexandr Celes are stupid, but frankly I think 25 Terrato Sabin is also stupid, but people do it anyway. I'd rather have weird classes coded in and considered, even if they're not builds that people really use.

(Also, "Valkyrie" is a personal favorite term that I was bound and determined to get in there somewhere >.>)

I'll comment a bit more once I settle into work tonight.

17 minutes ago, BTB said:

So, one rather broad comment I'll make is that if this does get coded (Seibaby and D both jumped on it a lot faster than I thought they would), the logic would probably only be smart enough to check for the dominant esper in a given build at best. Therefore, it's prudent to have a name for every esper, even if it's only a small variation on the same build (i.e. Shiva vs. Siren Celes). Things like 25 Alexandr Celes are stupid, but frankly I think 25 Terrato Sabin is also stupid, but people do it anyway. I'd rather have weird classes coded in and considered, even if they're not builds that people really use.

(Also, "Valkyrie" is a personal favorite term that I was bound and determined to get in there somewhere >.>)

I'll comment a bit more once I settle into work tonight.

Iow, hybrids won't get any fancy in-game name. The community will have to come up with officially unofficial build names for them. Fair enough.

Still don't see why certain builds can't share a name. (Shiva vs. Siren Celes). Shouldn't that be as simple as coding both those espers to show the same text? Not particularly keen on giving a variation like that two completely different names.

Oh, yeah, certain builds can certainly share a name, but if I'm working with the same space and have the opportunity to use two different names, why not.

Your decision. There are cases where I'd definitely say that they should be the same name (Siren vs Siren for Celes; Golem vs Palidor for Edgar)

It amuses me to think of Shadow as a Ninja Master in a Fenrir build or Nightblade in a Phantom build.  Directly referencing Seiken Densetsu 3, Ninja Master is better at ninja magic which matches with Fenrir Shadow being better at mass destruction with scrolls.  On the other end, Nightblade has higher STR which aligns with Phantom Shadow hitting harder.

  I keep picturing Sabin with Vigor and HP as some kind of bear which tears stuff up with claws.  Imagination isn't coming with any catchy bear themed class names at the moment.

Well, these are just my random musings on class names.

On 9/9/2017 at 5:46 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

Your decision. There are cases where I'd definitely say that they should be the same name (Siren vs Siren for Celes; Golem vs Palidor for Edgar)

One thing you should consider is the possibility of future expansion with class-specific bonuses, meaning that such classes could actually have an appreciable difference.

17 hours ago, BTB said:

One thing you should consider is the possibility of future expansion with class-specific bonuses, meaning that such classes could actually have an appreciable difference.

>_> You know I never think outside the box like that. Yeah, good point.

So basically like titles in Tales of Symphonia. This would basically like Esper equips bonuses.

Could be interesting, but I think I'd rather the names be mostly cosmetic.

One thing you could do is make it so that when you reset your EL's with Ultros, you can choose a list of these classes to effectively "auto distribute" the EL's how you want, instead of having to cash in 25 times.

Actually, I'd lean more towards classes functioning as a "hidden" mechanic that are only fully explained in the Unlockme or here.

What kind of class-specific bonuses are you thinking of? Sounds like you're thinking of very minute stuff, or simply minor things to help differentiate a class or two in a meaningful way.

Yeah, just minor stuff. Haven't really thought any of it through.

So....we gonna get a class name for Carbunkl Terra and Ragnarok Terra?

Carbunkl Terra is cracked and Ragnarok Terra is double cracked.

You said you needed names for all possibilities. Those two & Bahamut Relm are missing.

They're definitely cracked builds, but then again, you gave a name to Alexander Celes and Terrato Mog.

There's levels of cracked. And Ragnarok Terra is an 11.

And I said, "dude, why don't you just go up to 10 and make 10 more cracked?"

And Ragnarok Terra was like:

So....Ragnarok Terra is a return to crazy pink monster flying around the world, unable to speak?

Locke's base class needs to be Treasure Hunter guys. I don't care if it doesn't fit in the available space haha

I'm lost on this, are the classes supposed to do anything for the character? Or is it just a label? Because with the "build" reflecting their class, all I'm thinking of is The Last Remnant where you got passives based off of the class that you currently are. 

At first it'll just be a label. We're spitballing bonus perk ideas for down the road.

I'm gonna state again for the record that I think it is an extremely poor idea to not have class abilities for every esper. Ragnarok needs a class. Bahamut needs a class. Carbunkl needs a class. Why does Phoenix get a build but not Carbunkl? Yeah, it might not be the best idea NOW, since you don't get a lot of benefit from it, but the entire point of classes in a game is to A) open up new options you hadn't considered before, and B) to give you reasons to try offbeat builds. It doesn't serve our cause to skip Espers just 'cause no one builds them primary'. This is the opportunity to GIVE them a reason to build them primary. 

Suggestions for Fenrir Shadow:

Fenrir is more of the support build of Shadow, and "Shinobi" is really just another word for Ninja, so replace that class name with Saboteur and focus more on the ninja's historical role of spying/sabotage/subterfuge, some possibilities being:
Shadow's knives/shurikens can set poison/sap (it's weird that ninjas used poison all the time but the party's actual ninja can't)
Gray magic has no cast time
Phoenix Downs use the Life spell as their effect
Fight doesn't cause counter-attacks, or causes them less often (Ninjas should be able to attack from the shadows and not get countered or they're not very good ninjas)

OK, rough draft of class ideas in. Every class gets two bonuses.

Before we start, may I point out that "No class until 10 in a given esper" is....not the best idea for BNW? Some classes gain 10 in a given esper early (vig Sabin), while other classes will take a while to get 10 in a given esper (healer/mage Terra). This hurts the fluidity of builds, forcing the player to aim straight for 10 in one esper to get their bonus before branching out, even though that's rarely a wise idea.

More appropriately, I'd say that

• For WoB, 5 in any given esper qualifies as a class
• For mid-WoR, ? in any given esper qualifies as a class (somewhere between 5-10)
• For end-WoR, 10-12 in a given esper qualifies as a class

What exact formula / mechanic / programming is used is up for debate. I'm giving a rough estimate. You really need class to take into account the ratio of any given esper to the total amount of ELs taken. That way, you're not "forced" to take 10 of single esper early, since the game will generally reward you with a class just for taking your natural specialization.

That said:
 

One thing I notice a lot is that a lot of "Quickcast: Such and Such Spell" seems arbitrarily assigned. I know it's an easy bonus to give out, but don't do it. A lot of these builds have no purpose of quickcasting the spell that you've assigned to them.

Also, for class bonuses, you want to expand the character, open up options, or provide minor buffs to what they all ready are good at. You don't want to replace critical gear or hand out huge buffs. Do stuff like "Can Cover more types of attacks," "Damage +12.5%," etc, etc. Not "Inherent Cover" or "Free Power Glove" or "HP+25%".

Also, HP/MP espers do not have to give the same bonus to different people. You aren't doing that with vig/mag/spd/stam espers, why do that for HP/MP espers? The characters are different, even if they're similar. Therefore, even if the buff is similar, it does not mean that it has to be the same. Case in point: Phoenix Terra vs Phoenix Locke, or Alex Celes vs. Alex Cyan.

Lastly, there are several cases here where I think the poorly assigned class bonuses isn't your fault. It's more a problem with still not having figured out the balance / design of certain classes yet. Mostly looking at Strago, Relm, Geomancer, the HP+60 espers, possibly Gau. I got nothing for the HP espers, but I did recommend ideas for the others.

************************************************

EDIT: Something I failed to consider: Is it possible to change "No dual wield penalty" into "Reduced dual wield penalty"? So, instead of no penalty, just weaken the penalty to 87.5% damage for both weapons? It ends up being the same as "Two-Handed Bonus Raised from 50% to 75%." That might not be quite so bad.

Spitballing Gau Ideas:

Beastmaster: Controllable Rage. Gau doesn't fly into a berserker frenzy when selecting Rage.

• You still cannot switch Rages. When you hit "Rage" again, you just trigger the next attack in the Rage you all ready selected.
• Green Cherry is still needed to allow switching Rage again.
• This bonus allows Gau access to spot healing (Item/Regen) and some buffs/debuffs (HasteX) while Raging.

Berserker: Rage Counterattack. Gau now counterattacks with his actual Rage command, instead of his measly Fight. Still subject to 2/3 and 1/3 odds for the two attacks. Being on the non-stamina Gau helps control the power of this bonus.

************

Unfortunately, both these ideas are powerful & game-changing, which is something I tried to avoid with my suggestions. Rage Counterattack is definitely op with Rage as it currently is (see: Hurtmore counterattack). Still, it's another idea on the table.

EDIT: Last idea for determining class is to just do a straight "Whichever esper has the most ELs, that's your class. If two espers are tied, whichever one got there first determines class." Boom, simple. Flows perfectly with the mechanics, doesn't arbitrarily punish or reward certain builds, doesn't require any new events.

Hi all,

I used to lurk quite a bit at ID- I've posted a handful of times in the FFT 1.3 forum back there and _maybe_ once or twice in the BNW forum. Since a little before Arch came back and blew up ID, I've also been lurking here. I finally got around to making an account just so I could post in this thread (and now it'll give less friction for me to post some of my unrelated BNW questions...).

So, obviously my opinion means basically squat, but I have been following the mod for a while even though I only played part way through one really old version, only got to Atma in 1.8.4-ish (whichever version was right before adding ELs), and just now got to Vector in 1.8.6.

But, frankly, I'm not a fan of these ideas. I love the esper levels; I love that each character only gets some subset of espers; and I basically love everything about the mod. Let me try to articulate what I don't like about the classes discussion so far and you just take whatever points you think might be valid.

First of all, I find hidden mechanics to be annoying. Even when I played Pokemon, I hated having to look up Natures to see what they do to stats. I have very little time for video games, and I'm simply not going to sit with a guidebook (or printme/unlockme/web-page) open to reference constantly to see which spells I can cast quicker, or whether this dude has innate counter/cover, etc. I mean, it's fine if you're an old veteran and have committed this stuff to memory, but for the more casual among us who still enjoy optimizing, it detracts from the actual game.

Second, it's kind of a lot of complexity, relative to this kind of game. FF6 vanilla had very little complexity and you guys added just enough to make it interesting. But the fact that the espers are still the same no matter who equips them is a GOOD thing. I don't want to have to remember what Alex levels do to this character vs. that character.

Third, the classes are assuming/dictating what you are going to use the character for. Granted, in practice, it's probably going to be correct to assume that mag Edgar is going to play a particular role, but I find it annoying that just because I want to gain a certain combination of stats, the game will try to bottleneck me into playing a certain way. I like that "builds" are currently more free-form. I picked this combo of esper levels because *I* had a certain idea I wanted to accomplish, so just let me see if it worked out like I wanted. I could see this being frustrating for hybrid builds- maybe I wanted these stats on my hybrid Edgar, but instead I had to screw up my balance so I could get the mana battery bonus (or whatever). Sometimes trade-offs are cool to think about, but I could see this being frustrating.

Also, some of these characters have way too many classes. Celes has 7 listed in the OP as of my writing, not including the base class. It makes "designing" your teams overwhelming. That also exacerbates the difference in flexibility of the characters: we already know Celes is more flexible than Shadow- why add a multiplier to it? If there is something like a class system, can't it be limited to maybe 2 or 3 per character? Then you have something kind of like Secret of Mana 3, where each character had 2 options at each class upgrade point, making 4 final class outcomes, IIRC. It'll be easier to keep in your head, at least.

So those are my off-the-cuff thoughts on it. I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes with negative feedback as my first post here. I'll end by adding a few pleas to consider for this feature, not all of which are compatible with each other:

1. Keep the number of classes limited per character, even if they can equip many espers.

2. Maybe keep the classes purely cosmetic (you could even see if someone is willing to do custom sprites/portrait changes for the different classes. That would be a lot of work, but pretty neat). This is really what I hope for...

3. Please, please, put some in game documentation for the class bonuses if you have them.

4. Maybe nerf and/or decrease the scope of the bonuses. The quick-casting spells seems bizarre to me, but things like "increased counter rate" or "HP + 12.5%" or "decreased dance failure rate" seem less invasive. Also, limiting the bonus to one per class would be good, too.

Did we already pitch Exorcist for Slotzer? If not, I'll suggest that. It sounds badass. It's a type of healer that deals with dark forces. It's even a wrestler's name!

Thanks to everyone who's posted, both for and against. Just reminding y'all that this is something that's still firmly in "hey, wouldn't it be neat if..." phase, so everything I've posted is purely a rough draft any and all feedback is appreciated.

That said, a couple of general notes.

One, again, these ideas aren't set in stone. I only finished up this rough draft to give D and Seibaby a starting point as to the sort of things they may want to look into coding in for class bonuses. The prevalence of existing effects is simply due to the fact that I didn't want to bury them under a pile of new mechanics and so I only kept the best new ideas I had (which I then used fairly liberally). Feel free to suggest new ones and the list will evolve as necessary.

Two, the actual requirements for getting class are also not set in stone. This hasn't been coded yet and the real deciding factor will be what is and isn't possible. A progressive class system like Sword of Mana/SD3 has would be awesome, but I'm not going to break the bank with a single change like this. Ditto goes for explaining the class-system in game - there likely just will not be any real-estate for it. Again, feel free to pitch ideas.

Three... seriously, who in the hell is going to build a Carbunkl Terra? >.>

pogeymanz & BTB, I'll keep those things in mind.

33 minutes ago, BTB said:

Three... seriously, who in the hell is going to build a Carbunkl Terra? >.>

As it currently stands, Carbunkl Terra has the greatest ability to spam tier-3's. Not saying its the best thing in the world, but if you're giving Ifrit Locke something...

Also, in response to @pogeymanz in particular...

You make a good point(s), although I interpret these points to be "don't throw in something halfassed just because I want to see it happen" and "don't destroy the freeform build system that currently defines BNW". I assure you that I never add things to this mod without giving them an approrpiate (and often quite extensive) amount of consideration and that this notion will be kept very firmly in mind throughout.

15 hours ago, BTB said:

Also, in response to @pogeymanz in particular...

You make a good point(s), although I interpret these points to be "don't throw in something halfassed just because I want to see it happen" and "don't destroy the freeform build system that currently defines BNW". I assure you that I never add things to this mod without giving them an approrpiate (and often quite extensive) amount of consideration and that this notion will be kept very firmly in mind throughout.

Thanks for the replies and consideration, @BTB and @thzfunnymzn. I think your interpretation of my word vomit is half-correct. I wouldn't assume that you would put something in that is half-assed. It was clear that these class buffs are a brainstorm, which is why I decided to offer my two cents (before it's "too late" as it were).

I think another way to interpret my ramblings is "don't destroy the freeform build system that currently defines BNW", as you said, and "don't make BNW not-FF6". In my opinion, BNW is the fixed version of FF6. It keeps the flavor and basic mechanics of the game (espers teach magic and give stat bonuses, different characters have unique abilities and equip options), and simply makes them sane and interesting. I think my fear is that if this class thing becomes too significant an aspect of the gameplay (both in terms of impact on battles and on the mental overhead of team-building), that it will take away from BNW being "FF6.1"- rather, it'll become a game that is different from FF6. Which is all fine and a matter of opinion, but it would lose a little appeal with me, personally.

To be facetious and hyperbolic: "Hey, everyone liked the materia system. Let's add that, too!"

Again, if we're talking minor buffs, and only a handful of options to think about, I think I'd be happy with it.

I'm definitely in the camp of minor, flavorful buffs. Enough to help further differentiate builds, but not enough to seriously buff characters. The major areas where I introduced major buffs were on builds / classes I felt are mediocre. Which...actually is probably better handled by first fixing said build / class without resorting to class bonuses. That way, the class bonus can be kept as something small & simple yet meaningful & flavorful. So, stam Relm could just get Brush Cover without resorting to class bonuses, with her class bonuses focused more towards some minor extra stuff.

And I am most definitely in the camp of not destroying the existing free form system. You'll also notice that, for character like Terra & Celes, who have a huge amount of possible builds, I try to keep the class bonuses fairly generic. Stuff that would contribute to all builds, yet is still unique between different "classes." This plus keeping buffs minor shouldn't interfere with the free form system, but still provide some meaningful stuff via classes.

Today I'll try to be constructive instead of shitting on things.

Here's an idea: What if each class has one positive thing and one negative thing? For example, what if, e.g., a Mag Terra gets a small MP boost, but also takes a hit to Vig or HP? EDIT: Along those lines, you could maybe only do the negative stuff for "straight" builds and give hybrids a break.

Is it possible to modify equip options? What if Mag Terra can't equip heavy armors anymore, or takes an extra hit to speed from them, or something? That's probably adding too much complexity (both in terms of code and in terms of what the player has to deal with).

Thing with hybrids is that, IIRC, there's not going to be a way to code the game to understand a hybrid build. Golem + Stray on Sabin? The game will only understand "More Golem levels, so it's a Golem build." So, in this case, we have to select bonuses for the Golem build that not only work for the pure Golem build, but also for a Golem + Stray hybrid.

One positive, one negative, while it sounds like an interesting way to prevent power creep, I'm worried will violate the "don't ruin the free form nature of builds." If a Golem Sabin gets on positive and one negative, that one negative may be fine for a pure Golem Sabin, but it will adversely affect the hybrid build. For your example, you'd be locking Maduin Terra into a "frail mage" set-up, even though Maduin + Phoenix is a real possibility for a more bulky mage set-up.

18 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Thing with hybrids is that, IIRC, there's not going to be a way to code the game to understand a hybrid build. Golem + Stray on Sabin? The game will only understand "More Golem levels, so it's a Golem build." So, in this case, we have to select bonuses for the Golem build that not only work for the pure Golem build, but also for a Golem + Stray hybrid.

One positive, one negative, while it sounds like an interesting way to prevent power creep, I'm worried will violate the "don't ruin the free form nature of builds." If a Golem Sabin gets on positive and one negative, that one negative may be fine for a pure Golem Sabin, but it will adversely affect the hybrid build. For your example, you'd be locking Maduin Terra into a "frail mage" set-up, even though Maduin + Phoenix is a real possibility for a more bulky mage set-up.

Interesting. I don't know much about ASM, let alone SNES ASM, but how does it work that you can know that you have more Golem levels without knowing how many of each you have? If you knew how many of each you had, you could certainly come up with a look-up table, at worst.

But, yeah, I agree with you about hurting the free form build system. Honestly, I don't see any way to do this without hurting it, which was part of my gripe before... Having pre-defined classes necessarily does that, IMO.

IIRC, it's possible to program the game to understand how many of each esper has been taken. But to give it advanced logic in understanding build complexity, or even just moderate logic? Ain't happenin'. And a look-up tables of pre-defined builds & hybrids is another form of restricting the free form system. After all, whose to say that those of use deciding on the pre-defined builds to be used know all possibilities? Therefore, I believe we'll just end up with a simple class that simply states which esper you've taken the most of.

As for how that won't interfere with the free form system, again, I think the only way is to make sure bonuses are small and fairly universal in nature. For example, you'll notice for Phoenix Terra, I simply put up the idea of "No delay on Fight command, Reduced or no delay on Magic command." Just about any Terra build that takes primarily Phoenix will benefit from this, yet its still specific enough to be tailored to why someone would take heavy Phoenix. So it works for all possible builds involving Phoenix and, in theory, non-Phoenix builds will still be possible because the Phoenix bonus doesn't work as well for non-Phoenix builds. Course, deciding on two types of bonuses like that for each possibility is a lot of work & theorycrafting.

Idea:

Shiva Strago

• Ignores Elemental Resistance (iow, elemental attacks always do at least neutral damage)
• Magic/Lore has a 25% chance of an extra Poison proc (X-Magic would have two chances for an extra proc)

Odin Strago

• Resist: Poison damage. (Not status, but element. Poison chosen to avoid abusive resist stacking with Black Heart)

24 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Idea:

Shiva Strago

• Ignores Elemental Resistance (iow, elemental attacks always do at least neutral damage)
• Magic/Lore has a 25% chance of an extra Poison proc (X-Magic would have two chances for an extra proc)

Odin Strago

• Resist: Poison damage. (Not status, but element. Poison chosen to avoid abusive resist stacking with Black Heart)

Here's an idea! Not entirely serious, but whenever Odin Strago covers someone, 12.5% chance to proc Holy Wind, providing Strago has it.

This could maybe extend to the shield builds that are looking to emphasize having a shield on, having them block and/or cover someone and provide a heal or something similar. Issue is it might conflict with countering in some cases.

Also, since I don't believe it was put anywhere, what about bumping the chances up and/or adding the Dragon Helm effect for Edgar and Mog Dragoon builds?

Spitballs for Setzer:

Seraph: Random low % chance to cast Magic (but not Summon) for free.

Shoat: Random low % chance that any Slots command will also follow up with a random esper summon.

Starlet: Random low % chance that GP Rain will be used for free.

Just a thought, if we're worried about hybrids and the game knowing which takes priority, my suggestion is to force the class at half+1 max level. So if the max is 25, set the bonus to 13 for a single esper. That's only a little more then the current 10 being kicked around, but that requires you to commit to the idea to get a bonus, or go full freeform and do hybrid build. At best you could do 13/12, which would firmly lock you into a single esper as your 'main'. 

Its a little higher then a lot of builds use in a single esper right now, but that might also help promote hybrid builds if the class bonuses aren't too powerful, since the downside to picking a class is getting less of a splash from other espers. If you have a 10/10/5 build it's still worth considering, otherwise you'd have to do something silly like 13/7/5 or 13/8/4 just to get a class bonus.

Spitball: Rename Phoenix Locke to "Phoenix Mage", instead of Red Mage.

Why? Because Phoenix Locke is known for his X-Magic Fire 3 and Life 2 (and Cure 3). Just like a Phoenix. Otoh, iirc, he's not really known for being a mixed physical fighter/mage. Red Mage Locke is more fitting for Ramuh + Phoenix. And, lo and behold, naming Ramuh "Fighter" and Phoenix "Phoenix Mage" means that the hybrid of Fighter + Mage = Red Mage, which is exactly what that hybrid is.

First off, I really like this idea. The bonus act as additional incentives to invest in one build over another, while allowing for flexibility.

I'd like to pick up on the EL threshold question. @thzfunnymzn had an outline that ran: 

Quote

Before we start, may I point out that "No class until 10 in a given esper" is....not the best idea for BNW? Some classes gain 10 in a given esper early (vig Sabin), while other classes will take a while to get 10 in a given esper (healer/mage Terra). This hurts the fluidity of builds, forcing the player to aim straight for 10 in one esper to get their bonus before branching out, even though that's rarely a wise idea.

More appropriately, I'd say that

• For WoB, 5 in any given esper qualifies as a class
• For mid-WoR, ? in any given esper qualifies as a class (somewhere between 5-10)
• For end-WoR, 10-12 in a given esper qualifies as a class

What exact formula / mechanic / programming is used is up for debate. I'm giving a rough estimate. You really need class to take into account the ratio of any given esper to the total amount of ELs taken. That way, you're not "forced" to take 10 of single esper early, since the game will generally reward you with a class just for taking your natural specialization.

I acknowledge the complexity that gets introduced by narrowing the threshold to include too many combinations, but 5 EL 'chunks' seem like a number that is accessible early, without being too explosive. 5 levels in a given esper could trigger tiered bonuses at increasing level 'chunks'. So associated bonuses at 5/10/15/20(?)/25(?) of a single esper to reward specialization while allowing for hybrid flexibility.

Taking Celes as an example, taking 5 ELs with Ramuh post-Zozo could trigger class to update to Holy Knight, and the first class bonus to trigger. Then, taking 5 Siren levels could leave class unchanged, but give a class bonus. Taking an additional 5 Siren would result in class change to Magic Knight, while retaining the first Holy Knight bonus. 

If you wanted to get a little fancier, hybrid builds reaching thresholds for multiple espers could result in synergistic bonuses. Here various 'chunk' combinations could trigger named hybrid classes, or merely bonuses in addition to the individual class bonuses.  I'm not sure about the state of available space in the existing data structures as of 1.9, that could be a problem with implementing this kind of mechanic, but these space constraints will become trivial if plans go ahead to eventually expand the rom in 2.0.

Just my two cents. Tossing out ideas.

Yeah, I'm starting to think that tiered bonuses would work best for things at this time. With an expanded rom the coders could focus some odd and neat extra bonus titles and benefits on top of that, but tiered bonuses seem like they would be the easiest to test coding wise.

Another thing I've noticed for Shadow and Gau is the lack of ideas for things. With Shadow, one of the possibilities BTB and Synchysi could use is the dog Shadow keeps by him at all times. That is one thing they might be able to use and 'enhance' with whatever bonuses they give. Maybe the dog would be more likely to attack/defend given what EL's Shadow takes, with the odds of the dog being a factor in a battle increasing each tier.

With Gau, you have a similar problem as Shadow, but less to work with for finding solutions to it. Therefore it might help to borrow from other characters in the game here for possible solutions. Think about stealing some things from the other characters. Afterall, Gau's ability is all about mimicing monsters, so why wouldn't he start imitating some of the other party members as he grows? He should not be as useful as Gogo in that regards, but using the bonuses to give him some minor aspects from the other characters (or maybe even other monsters) might make him more usable and useful in some ways. Well, that or just giving him some stat bonuses, or having his rages end after a time, or something else like that. BTB and Synchysi should definitely experiment and play around with that. However, too much of that can easily make him broken beyond belief if not done well, and that is an all too valid concern with his possible title bonuses if they go in that direction.

Are the Equipable Esper Bonuses and Relics independent from these class bonuses? For instance, if a player gets +25% HP can still equip an Esper or Relic offering the same bonus and have it stack?

As mentioned, I'm not sure how you might tell the game to give someone a certain class, especially if they are doing a 10/10 Hybrid type set up. I really like the idea of a tiered system with these bonuses being applied slowly at Esper Levels of 5-10-15-20 and MAYBE 25 if the player chooses to go that far.  This also allows the player the option of grabbing 5-10 levels in several espers to pick up multiple types of bonuses if they want. In looking at some of the bonuses such as "MORPH DELAY IS SHORTER", that isn't really TIERABLE, but it could work for a lot of them.

If this is implemented though, bosses and enemies after Dadaluma really need to be buffed, as these updates have been doing a great job of avoid "loss aversion", aka giving the players new buffs rather than nerfing things which is a lot more enjoyable but the challenge factor of the game will suffer a bit because of it.

My Impressions of the Bonuses

Terra
Mage (Base)
Battlemage (Bismark)  ---  Morph delay is shorter; Break and Storm cast faster
Black Mage (Maduin)  ---  MP+25%; all Fire/Ice/Bolt spells & Ultima cast faster
White Mage (Unicorn)  ---  HP+25%; all Cure and Life spells cast faster
Omega Mage (Tritoch) ---  Regen MP while morphed; Remedy and Regen spells cast faster
Red Mage (Phoenix) ---  HP/MP+12.5%; Cure (1-2), Fire (1-2), and Life (1) cast faster

Everyone EXCEPT Battlemage I feel is spot on. The problem with Battlemage is Break/Storm casting faster does not at all synergize with a Bismark build. Instead, I'd give Terra either an Inherent Counter or an Inherent Oath Veil for 50% spell proc chance.

Holy Knight (Ramuh)  ---  HP+25%; all Swords get some kind of bonus(?)
Dark Knight (Phantom)  ---  No dual-wield damage penalty; Merton and Demi/Quartr cast faster
Valkyrie (Crusader)  ---  Inherent Cover; Safe and Haste cast faster
Vanguard (Alexandr)  ---  Inherent Counter; Life and Regen spells cast faster
Magic Knight (Siren)  ---  Runic restores 2x MP; all Ice & Bolt spells cast faster
Holy Mage (Shiva)  ---  MP+25%; Holy, Merton, and all Cure spells cast faster
Cleric (Seraph) ---  HP+25%; Rerise, Remedy, and all Cure spells cast faster
All great ideas! Just a question of the SWORD Bonus. Once again, an inherent Oath Veil could work here or maybe a reduction in MP crit cost since Celes will likely be running crit/proc weapons on that build

Now another thing I realize is with your new Stamina idea, Cover and Counter % improves with Stamina, which means giving Inherent Counter or Cover on a Stamina Build is somewhat counter-intuitive. I'd consider combining the Counter and Cover into Alexander, and giving Valkyrie a boost to ???

Locke
Rogue (Base)
Fighter (Ramuh)  ---  Critical Attack rate up; all Swords get some kind of bonus(?)
Paladin (Kirin) ---  All Shields get some kind of bonus(?); Cure (1-2) cast faster
Thief (Ifrit)  ---  Steal always succeeds; Drain and all Bolt spells cast faster
Red Mage (Phoenix) ---  HP/MP+12.5%; Cure (1-2), Fire (1-2), and Life (1) cast faster
 

Fighter-MP crit cost down

Paladin-Put an idea for this on Edgar's build

Thief- Steal always succeeds is kind of...meh. Could maybe combine that with Steal>>Mug but even then Steal is extremely situational at best. Increased Evasion and Counter rate fits well with Thief.

Edgar
Engineer (Base)
Alchemist (Siren)  ---  Status-setting attacks/spells ignore enemy stamina; gain elemental resistance from equipped weapons
Sentinel (Golem)  ---  Inherent Counter; Tools delay is shorter
Phalanx (Unicorn)  ---  All Shields get some kind of bonus(?); Safe and Slow spells cast faster
Dragoon (Palidor) ---  Two-handed damage bonus is 75% instead of 50%; Haste and Float spells cast faster

The shield thing again, hmmm. One thing that comes to mind for me is making a Blocked physical hit restore HP for the damage it would have caused, like Runic but for HP.

Those Alchemist bonuses are really unique and interesting!

Sabin
Monk (Base)
Shaman (Stray) - AKA "Stam-WOW" Sabin  ---  HP Regen rate is doubled; gain elemental resistance from equipped weapons
Godhand (Golem) - AKA "Slap-Chop" Sabin  ---  Critical Attack Rate Up; Blitz delay is shorter
Guardian (Terrato) - AKA "Schticky" Sabin ---  Inherent Cover; Sleep and Drain spells cast faster

Perfect

Cyan
Samurai (Base)
Swordsmaster (Bismark) ---  +25% Physical Damage; Bushido delay is shorter
Templar (Kirin) ---  Inherent Cover; Cure spells cast faster
Vanguard (Alexandr)  ---  Inherent Counter; Life and Regen spells cast faster
 

Anyway to distinguish the Bushido Delay to specific skills, such as reduced Tempest/Dispatch Delay versus reduced Dragon/Eclipse Delay?

Kirin's bonuses are meh when considering that his high Stamina will already give him a high Cover rate and Cure spells on Cyan are garbage. Instead consider Mag+25% to buffs his cure spells and keep Dragon/Eclipse powerful into late game

Shadow
Ninja (Base)
Assassin (Phantom) ---  Critical Attack rate up; Pre-Emtpive Attack rate up
Shinobi (Fenrir) 

The Critical Attack is definitely enticing to encourage the player to "Fight" over "Throw", Pre-Emptive Attack rate up is simply Meh

Fenrir without a doubt needs to offer a bonus to Interceptor, such as "Interceptor counters all blocked physical attacks" instead of being it's open separate thing and/or a buff to interceptor damage. Truthfully, giving a Interceptor buff synergizes much better with Phantom than Fenrir, so I'd maybe move the current Phantom Bonus to Fenrir in that case.

Gau
Hunter (Base)
Beastmaster (Stray)
Berserker (Fenrir)

From FunnyMzn

Spitballing Gau Ideas:

Beastmaster: Controllable Rage. Gau doesn't fly into a berserker frenzy when selecting Rage.

• You still cannot switch Rages. When you hit "Rage" again, you just trigger the next attack in the Rage you all ready selected.
• Green Cherry is still needed to allow switching Rage again.
• This bonus allows Gau access to spot healing (Item/Regen) and some buffs/debuffs (HasteX) while Raging.

Berserker: Rage Counterattack. Gau now counterattacks with his actual Rage command, instead of his measly Fight. Still subject to 2/3 and 1/3 odds for the two attacks. Being on the non-stamina Gau helps control the power of this bonus.

I love these ideas

Setzer
Gambler (Base)
Undertaker (Shoat) - AKA "Slotzer" ---  No dual-wield damage penalty; Doom and Poison/Bio cast faster
Pilgrim (Starlet) - AKA "The Bank"(*) --- Inherent Counter; Remedy and Regen spells cast faster
Cleric (Seraph) ---  HP+25%; Rerise, Remedy, and all Cure spells cast faster
 

Undertaker: Are Dice even affected by Dual Wield? Or would the No Dual Wield simply affect Darts and Knives?

Pilgrim-I am not big on giving Inherent Counter/Cover on a build that is already focusing Stamina anyway. What about a Gil Toss bonus instead?

Cleric-Perfect!

Mog
Moogle (Base)
Druid (Shoat)  ---  Summon delay is shorter; Break, Quake, and Poison/Bio cast faster
Geomancer (Maduin) ---  Dance always succeeds; (?)
Dragoon (Palidor) - AKA "Mogoon" ---  Two-handed damage bonus is 75% instead of 50%; Haste and Float spells cast faster
Guardian (Terrato)  ---  Inherent Cover; Sleep and Drain spells cast faster

Geomancer bonus is not helpful since with a Geomancer build your dance will almost always work anyway. Instead, a buff to the Healing potential of Stamina spells used during Dance 

Strago
Blue Mage (Base)
Sorcerer (Zoneseek) ---  MP+25%; X-Zone, Dark, and Ice spells cast faster
Wizard (Shiva) ---  +25% Magical Damage; Stop and Osmose spells cast faster
Sage (Odin)  ---  HP Regen rate is doubled; Lore delay is shorter

The spells the cast faster between Sorcerer/Wizard might make more sense with Sorcerer getting a faster X-Zone, Doom and Stop and Wizard getting faster Dark, Ice and Osmose spells

Relm
Pictomancer (Base)
Sorceress (Zoneseek) ---  MP+25%; Meteor, Flare, and Fire spells cast faster
Priestess (Starlet) - AKA "Love You Long Time" Relm ---  Summon delay is shorter; Rerise,Remedy, and Regen spells cast faster
Illusionist (Ifrit) ---  Brushes may set image; (?)

Illusionist- Brush may set image + Evasion up

Priestess-Scrap Summon Delay, offer a bonus to Interceptor or a bonus to Sketch

No matter what happens, enemies are due for a buff here anyway. Especially with the cover and counter system implemented, monsters were ALREADY slated for a boost at some point. So adding classes on top of that... you can expect to run into some tougher stuff later on, that's for sure. 

Are we going to see Cover & Counter on monsters? >_>

Not likely since the new cover code overwrites most of the monster cover functionality. When I wrote it, I asked BTB if I should preserve it (the functionality is there in vanilla, but unused) and the answer was no.

I'm looking at suggestions for builds that haven't been talked about yet, although I suppose I should be doing this in the Discord chat if I really wanted to make headway.

Anyway, I'm feeling one of two ways about Gau. The first is a symmetrical set of bonuses, while the second is more unique.

For the symmetrical set, Beastmaster would gain a bonus to monster-specific abilities, any 'Special' attack as well as any other attack that isn't shared by any other character. Berserker would gain a similar bonus to any ability not covered by this. The goal is for roughly half his abilities to be boosted by each set, although it probably would use some more fine-tuning. But in this case, you'd basically be opting for one set of Rages over another, and this would probably lead to, well, Berserker being the better healer, actually, which is weird. Anyway, I suppose the ultimate goal would be for Beastmaster to be good at utility/support with monster skills, while Berserker trucks things dead, but both are kind of lazy bonuses and don't feel fun to me.

Alternately, Beastmaster alters the chances from 66/33 to 60/40, or maybe even 55/45, although I feel like approaching 50/50 is too strong. And then Berserker grants some other kind of flat bonus. Perhaps something for just all "Special" attacks, maybe just a straight damage boost, I'm not sure exactly. If he didn't already have the lowest penalty and fastest command input, I'd say Berserker could reduce those in some fashion, but some kind of just straight power boost would make more sense to me. Your choice would then be between better utility, through normally rare secondary actions being made more common, or simply better trucking ability, through hitting even more really hard than he already does.

Both of these offer a generic "X% boost" that otherwise feels bland, but it's hard to come up with a non-gamebreaking but thematic idea for him given his unique set.

For Shadow, the one listed build already seems to favor attacking, so make his second one focus on throwing. As fast as he already is, I don't think he needs any kind of delay buffs, so perhaps simply a chance to not use the thrown item? Giving a throwing/supporting build better longevity and helping to alleviate the gp drain committing to this build could otherwise lead to. Other than that, it's hard to think of what a throwing build would want that it doesn't already have.

Oh, I know, just turn Throw into Mix! 

Just spitballing an idea here, but perhaps instead of linking class bonuses to ELs in a particular Esper, it could be done simply by their regular level and be a Talent, taking a page from the Dota 2 Handbook. Here's an example for "Medusa" in Dota 2.

For example, a Celes tree could appear as

Level 10: Vigor+5 or Magic +5

Level 15: White/Grey Magic cast rate up or Black Magic cast rate up

Level 20: Runic ignores party/auto-counter with Runic or ??? damage up 20%

Level 25: Magic Damage + 25% or No Dual Wield Penalty + Crit Chance up

Coincidently, the Dota 2 levels fit nicely into BNW as well since unless you're striving for a low level game most players will hit Level 25 before Kefka Tower. So the general trend would then be:

Level 10: + 5 boost to a main stat choice (Vigor Magic Speed or Stamina)

Level 15: Spell or ability cast rate boost up choice

Level 20: A choice between 2 buffs affecting that character's special action

Level 25: A significant boost to the character's damage/healing or tanking potential (possibly another ability buff too)

This seems like a really fun idea and I'm all for it. It'd be cool if each class had a different sprite kinda like jobs in FF5.

Changing character sprites gets complicated, because a lot of stuff is linked to sprite ID. It's definitely possible, because T-edition manages it, but it's definitely more complicated than just changing a character's sprite.

Quote

Nowea: BTB I propose that if class names ever happen that a primary Kirin Locke be named White Knight now

On 12/17/2017 at 1:39 AM, vonriel said:

I'm looking at suggestions for builds that haven't been talked about yet, although I suppose I should be doing this in the Discord chat if I really wanted to make headway.

Anyway, I'm feeling one of two ways about Gau. The first is a symmetrical set of bonuses, while the second is more unique.

For the symmetrical set, Beastmaster would gain a bonus to monster-specific abilities, any 'Special' attack as well as any other attack that isn't shared by any other character. Berserker would gain a similar bonus to any ability not covered by this. The goal is for roughly half his abilities to be boosted by each set, although it probably would use some more fine-tuning. But in this case, you'd basically be opting for one set of Rages over another, and this would probably lead to, well, Berserker being the better healer, actually, which is weird. Anyway, I suppose the ultimate goal would be for Beastmaster to be good at utility/support with monster skills, while Berserker trucks things dead, but both are kind of lazy bonuses and don't feel fun to me.

Alternately, Beastmaster alters the chances from 66/33 to 60/40, or maybe even 55/45, although I feel like approaching 50/50 is too strong. And then Berserker grants some other kind of flat bonus. Perhaps something for just all "Special" attacks, maybe just a straight damage boost, I'm not sure exactly. If he didn't already have the lowest penalty and fastest command input, I'd say Berserker could reduce those in some fashion, but some kind of just straight power boost would make more sense to me. Your choice would then be between better utility, through normally rare secondary actions being made more common, or simply better trucking ability, through hitting even more really hard than he already does.

Both of these offer a generic "X% boost" that otherwise feels bland, but it's hard to come up with a non-gamebreaking but thematic idea for him given his unique set.

For Shadow, the one listed build already seems to favor attacking, so make his second one focus on throwing. As fast as he already is, I don't think he needs any kind of delay buffs, so perhaps simply a chance to not use the thrown item? Giving a throwing/supporting build better longevity and helping to alleviate the gp drain committing to this build could otherwise lead to. Other than that, it's hard to think of what a throwing build would want that it doesn't already have.

Oh, I know, just turn Throw into Mix! 

What if Gau's classes messed with his ai? You could reliability have less "no Gau! Not THAT move!" Moments.

I have a few small ideas I'd like to throw out there since we're still in the "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" phase.

It's cool that Relm can get Interceptor but no sane person would sacrifice Shadow for that, and I also feel like she doesn't have nearly enough use for high Stamina, so what if Starlet Relm got access to Interceptor even if Shadow wasn't dead?

Similarly, I don't think Strago get's enough out of Stamina either, so maybe something like having a higher proc rate on counterattacks with rods? Somebody mentioned having a chance to cast Holy Wind when he covers, that sounded pretty good.

I love the idea of Ifrit Relm being called the Illusionist and her brushes proccing Image in place of their normal procs, and it would probably be the only build I'd ever use for Relm if you put this in.

I think Bismark Terra definitely shouldn't have the Quickcast: Break and Storm, since she barely has reason to use those spells late game to begin with, and DEFINITELY not when she's built for vigor. It'd be a bit much but what if instead she had a chance to auto-Bserk when she Morphs? Terra is an excellent spell-caster even with pure Vigor builds, so this would serve the dual purpose of cranking up her damage for her glass cannon build while also making it more difficult for her to cast powerful damage spells while morphed with that build. For example, I just ran through Kefka's Tower with pure Bismark Terra and she was still hitting 9999 when she was weakness sniping with tier 3 spells.

Another thing that feels like it's a little poorly defined is Terrato Sabin, so why not give it something to exacerbate it's differences with Stray Sabin? I was thinking since one of the main benefits of Stamina over HP for him is that Chakra is stronger, that you could make Terrato Sabin have stronger Mantras and help solidify the HP build's role as a defensive support.

That's pretty much all I've got for now.

2 hours ago, JohnFuklaw said:

Another thing that feels like it's a little poorly defined is Terrato Sabin

I'll nitpick and say that Terrato Sabin looks like he makes a solid bulky hyb Sabin, as opposed to Golem + Stray which is more "frail". He's got the all-important HP for front-row attacking, he's got beefy Mantra / Golem summons, and he can afford a few Stray ELs to beef up Chakra. Have yet to try it, but I'm personally more attracted to Terrato Sabin as a "support tank" build for Sabin, rather than Stray Sabin.

This is jut me nitpicking. Carry on. : )