Some thoughts on Stamina builds

I recently played around with Stamina builds on every character in BNW after I discovered that everybody has at least 1 Stamina boosting esper, and I had some ideas for improving Stamina-based builds that I'd like to throw out here.

First off, I think the most recent patch making Counter and Cover go off Stamina to determine their proc rate is absolutely genius, and C/C builds have been some of my favorites since then and I love having a useful purpose for Stamina other than just being a third "damage stat" for niche builds.

I think there should be an event in the WoR that becomes accessible once you have Relm and Shadow (and maybe Strago) that switches Interceptor over to Relm. My logic is that Shadow can easily get sky-high physical evasion and that between that and Image-spam he should almost never be getting hit, and therefore never proccing Interceptor, while Relm otoh still gets hit plenty and could really use an extra use for her Stamina since she has access to a +2 Stamina esper. Alternatively, being able to trigger an event to switch Interceptor back and forth between them could work too, or maybe even a Relm-exclusive relic that let's her use Interceptor.

On the subject of Relm, if her paintbrushes healed with Stamina that could give it some extra utility too; with stam-heals, regen-x, interceptor, and Stamina-based sketches I think Stam Relm could finally become a widely used build.

Strago, Edgar, and Sabin all come really close of having good Stamina builds imo but just fall short of where they should be. Sabin's main shortcoming in this department is that his Stam build would need both relic slots for covering and countering, and with his low defense I don't think this makes him very appealing as a tank, so maybe a unique piece of equipment that gives cover or counter to him? I kind of like the idea of claws having inherent counter, making him more like the monk from FF5, but since all of his claws are elemental that would probably be awful in practice, since he'd counter enemies with elements that they negate/absorb all the time. Edgar's Stam build is nearly great, being really beefy and still being a great status setter, even if he loses out on damage, but his low starting Stamina and poor damage options outside of the Omega Weapon hinder him here I think. It'd be good if he started with 30 or 36 Stamina instead of 24, which would not only make him cover and counter more but also let him invest some into another esper on his tank build to give it some more side benefits rather than demanding every EL be invested into Unicorn to make up for his low Stamina, and/or the Gungnir getting its "strong vs floating enemies" property back, giving him stronger counter-attacks. Since that property wouldn't proc on jumps it would also make it more solid in its role as a "tank weapon" instead of a "damage-dealer weapon". Then there's Strago, whom I really want to have a great stamina build, but I just don't think rod counters on such a flimsy character and a strong Odin summon are enough. I'm not sure what to recommend to buff it on Strago though, maybe have it somehow make Holy Wind or Raid stronger?

Mog's Stam build is pretty good I think, I like having a sturdy tank that'll counter with rod spell-crits, but I think it'd be even better if he could dance and C/C at the same time, which would allow him to use one of his dances with a lot of Stamina-based healing while still covering and countering, otherwise he needs the Moogle Charm if he wants to dance AND cover, which locks him out of countering. I think losing the ability to control his dancing in exchange for the ability to counter would be a fair trade-off and would effectively give you two major ways to play Stamina Mog. Besides, its a shame he can't really use his dances on a C/C build as of now since there's synergy with his high Stamina on it.

On pretty much everyone else, I've found their Stamina builds to be pretty solid (esp. Terra and Cyan), so it's really just those five that I think need to be improved upon a little (or a lot in Relm's case).

Does anyone else have any ideas? I like the idea of Stamina being less niche and would love to see it have a stronger place in any future patches.

1 hour ago, JohnFuklaw said:

I think losing the ability to control his dancing in exchange for the ability to counter would be a fair trade-off and would effectively give you two major ways to play Stamina Mog. Besides, its a shame he can't really use his dances on a C/C build as of now since there's synergy with his high Stamina on it.

Losing control during his dance isn't much of a loss.  If you have him do a frequent healing dance with the ability to C/C, he'll be a monster, and something of a bore cause there'd be little reason to do any other build.

It's late at night, but I know I won't fall asleep without responding to a balance discussion of BNW, so I'll be brief.

It's far from my worst, but my brief is still other people's dissertations.

Relm does get Interceptor in BNW - you just have to kill Shadow.

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Mog's Stam build is pretty good I think, I like having a sturdy tank that'll counter with rod spell-crits, but I think it'd be even better if he could dance and C/C at the same time, which would allow him to use one of his dances with a lot of Stamina-based healing while still covering and countering, otherwise he needs the Moogle Charm if he wants to dance AND cover, which locks him out of countering. I think losing the ability to control his dancing in exchange for the ability to counter would be a fair trade-off and would effectively give you two major ways to play Stamina Mog. Besides, its a shame he can't really use his dances on a C/C build as of now since there's synergy with his high Stamina on it.

As I already state in another topic I strongly disagree here if Mog could Rod C/C and Dance at the same that would be to much in my opinion and it would loss depth because in this case then this would make Maduin Build far better than Shoat build, and IMO this would loss making the player have to choose between Rod Counter or Dancing which would make Mog less interesting to play.

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Strago, Edgar, and Sabin all come really close of having good Stamina builds imo but just fall short of where they should be. Sabin's main shortcoming in this department is that his Stam build would need both relic slots for covering and countering, and with his low defense I don't think this makes him very appealing as a tank, so maybe a unique piece of equipment that gives cover or counter to him? I kind of like the idea of claws having inherent counter, making him more like the monk from FF5, but since all of his claws are elemental that would probably be awful in practice, since he'd counter enemies with elements that they negate/absorb all the time. Edgar's Stam build is nearly great, being really beefy and still being a great status setter, even if he loses out on damage, but his low starting Stamina and poor damage options outside of the Omega Weapon hinder him here I think. It'd be good if he started with 30 or 36 Stamina instead of 24, which would not only make him cover and counter more but also let him invest some into another esper on his tank build to give it some more side benefits rather than demanding every EL be invested into Unicorn to make up for his low Stamina, and/or the Gungnir getting its "strong vs floating enemies" property back, giving him stronger counter-attacks. Since that property wouldn't proc on jumps it would also make it more solid in its role as a "tank weapon" instead of a "damage-dealer weapon". Then there's Strago, whom I really want to have a great stamina build, but I just don't think rod counters on such a flimsy character and a strong Odin summon are enough. I'm not sure what to recommend to buff it on Strago though, maybe have it somehow make Holy Wind or Raid stronger?

Stam Sabin is definitly more of a support than a tank due to his low HP and Def but in my opinion it's his worst build for now as both Golem and Terrato Sabin are more tanky than Stam Sabin, but also Stam Sabin lack the cheer physical power of Golem Sabin, lack the great tankiness of Terrato Sabin and lack abilities that make this stand out, as Mantra is actually better with a Terrato build than Stam Sabin, Chakra is gotten to late to truly be usefull and outside of Aurabolt none of his offensive Blitz is stamina base.

Edgar main problem is definitly is awfull starting stamina, and having no synergy with Stamina outside of C/C and Omega Weapon, mind you stam Edgar is still a very tanky character but I wouldn't mind some of his Tools being made Stamina Base (like Mana Battery for instance) or him getting a spell like Regen.

As for Strago...... well to be honnest I'm kind of have an Hard Time imagining an Old Man such as him getting a tank build like that but my opinion and his Stam Build for me seems like the worst Stam Build of the game due to Strago being so easy to kill in the front Row (no C/C) having nothing in his abilities that go well with Stamina, and just being straight inferior to a Magic Build.

As for Relm kind of the same as Strago no C/C due to being to fragile, no offensive option with Stamina the only thing she has for her is Regen X but why would you want that when Mag Relm can get a shit load of MP, Cure 3 that cost less than Regen and give more HP back and some great offensive option with Flare and Meteor, I argue that even a full Ifrit Relm would be more usefull

Stam sabin is poopy poop in my book. So is Strago. Incidentally, they both get +2 stam espers but can't make any use of it. I mean Sabin has uses, but they're bad. Chakra doesn't keep up with any heavy MP users, even when you literally use it every single turn. It works only on very niche party setups (3 casters). You can't take hits, HP and even Vigor+HP does a much better job at that. You cover/counter more often, that's the only advantage. Unless you really, really, really want a character that negates most status aliments in the game while sucking on every other department, stamina is a no go for him. Mantra isn't *that* bad, until you realize literally every other form of healing in the game is better, and that raw HP works as good if not better than Stamina for boosting it.

Strago and stam are just uh, uncompatible. Slap a Ribbon on him and enjoy doing 50 billion times more damage regardless of the wasted relic slot. His magic def is very high, he doesn't need help. Defense piercing attacks don't happen that often and when they do, chances are he won't take them even with full stamina due to low HP.

That said, every other character is fine in my book. Boosting Edgar's Stamina makes little sense to me. He can already cover so many roles excellently with just a few equip swaps. Him being also a reliable cover user while retaining his support magic, tools and good damage even without heavy vigor investment seems like pure overkill. If you really want +stam Spears, they'd have to have really, really low battle power, then you can improve his covering chances by a lot but not make him stupid strong offensively with his counters. And even then, there's stam mog with spears that covers exactly that role already, so it would be redundant.

Take Mog, if you exclude dragoon/pure magic, his role is *very* clear. He puts heavy armor on, takes hits from everything and everyone like a monster, has high chance of cover, and is good as passively supporting your party. Can slow and haste and other stuff on off turns, and if you really got nothing else to do with his turns, Dance gives you basically a 50/50 chance of fully healing your party (easily, with high stamina), which saves turn for your healer to do other stuff. Want a more offensive version? Swap spears with rods and Moogle Charm with Hero Ring. No 1-turn Dance, but at this point you'll want to attack on your off turns, not dance.

Giving him both feels unnecessary. In general, Stamina walks a fine line between "niche/not really useful" and "broken" on most characters. I'd rather have the former than the latter, especially cause Stamina's main asset is what it *doesn't* blatantly do for you. It doesn't allow status aliments to wreck you, but whenever you see that happen you don't think "it's my stamina that did that", which causes a lot of players to heavily underestimate the stat. IMO, it's a defensive stat and it still gets plenty of offensive options, making them OP or making every character good with stamina is as bad as turning everyone into a magic user like in the original.

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Take Mog, if you exclude dragoon/pure magic, his role is *very* clear. He puts heavy armor on, takes hits from everything and everyone like a monster, has high chance of cover, and is good as passively supporting your party. Can slow and haste and other stuff on off turns, and if you really got nothing else to do with his turns, Dance gives you basically a 50/50 chance of fully healing your party (easily, with high stamina), which saves turn for your healer to do other stuff. Want a more offensive version? Swap spears with rods and Moogle Charm with Hero Ring. No 1-turn Dance, but at this point you'll want to attack on your off turns, not dance.

Mog is for me the most balance character of the mod all his build are good in one way or another without being overpowered :

-Vig Mog ? Enjoy that Spear Jump boost pair with Moogle Charm for faster Jump and Dragon Helm for potential Double Jump (and C/C with spear is still an option)
-Shoat Mog ? Rod + Dragoon Seal + Moogle Charm enjoy watching doing a lot of damage with these Rod proc and Dancing for whatever is needed or equip Sage Stone and Take Benefit of his spell list
-Maduin/Terrato Mog ? Yeah for Rod's Cover/Counter or Dance for mob fight
-Terrato ? Watch at your ennemy trying to desesperatly this freaking mascot and customize him the way you want through his vast options of equipment

In other word you can't go wrong with Mog already and giving him the possibility to C/C and Dance at the same time with a Rod is unecessary ^^

Chiming in that I am in agreement that stam Sabin is very underpowered. In my NHT run he was my most useless character. He died to everything, despite his stamina, and didn't add enough of anything to be worth rezzing. He was more of a liability than a help. In KT I pretty much just left him dead and 3-manned bosses without him. 

So it sounds like just about everyone likes Stamina Edgar well enough already, I guess being that tanky and that good at support is good enough by itself, and being a good damage dealer on top would be overkill, but I'd still really like the Gungnir to get its "strong vs floating enemies" property back.

I also didn't consider that Stam Sabin was made for Chakra/Mantra support instead of tanking. I heard from someone that Nirvana Band doesn't boost Chakra and Mantra, so that might be something that could help it, because I also noticed neither really seemed that good. His Chakra definitely couldn't keep up with heavy MP users like X-Locke and X-Mog  and Mantra wasn't terribly impressive either, so it'd definitely be nice if they got some sort of buff, like if Stamina contributed more to the healing so Stam Sabin would be better at Mantra than HP Sabin.

As for the Interceptor thing, I don't think anyone would be willing to kill off one of the better characters in the party to enable a mostly mediocre meme build for Relm. I love the idea of her getting Interceptor but it feels more like an easter egg than an actual character option because it comes at such a high cost.

So, tl;dr, Mantra needs buffs and/or nerfs to other support characters, Chakra needs more viable uses, both Mantra and Chakra could be learned earlier, Fire Dance/Air Blade as stamina-based, possibly some better equipment for Sabin, most certainly more actually good universal uses for stamina (status reduction?), and possibly reminding people to not get too crazy with building stamina on Sabin.

As to buffing Mantra, what if it set regen on Sabin?  So it gets around the drawback that it doesn’t heal him, while saving a relic slot.  Plus a mantra is a phrase repeated during meditation, so regen tics duplicate this repetition and support future use of Mantra by boosting HP.

If this is OP, maybe Sabin just gets one regen tic, but immediately prior to casting Mantra to slightly increase its effectiveness.

Just chiming in to +1 the following ideas:

- +Stam on spears and/or buff Edgar's base Stam. Building him straight Stam gives him immense HP bulk, but he's just not as good at covering as many of the other good bodyguard candidates due to his lower max Stam.

- buff Stam Sabin. Giving Chakra/Mantra more oomph and having his elemental Blitzes use Stam per funnyman's suggestions both appeal to me.

- a way to get Interceptor on Relm without killing Shadow. He can barely keep the dog away from her during the Thamasa WoB story sequence, it shouldn't take killing him to have the dog help her out. I support a Relic approach to this rather than something event based, assuming this is simpler — maybe a Memento Ring Colliseum trade?

- better status resist growth from Stam investment.

Something that could be touched on regarding Sabin. Something that is indirectly responsible for Stam Sabin basically falling off... The access to healing that a player gets grows faster than the need for it does. Even with 0 EL investment and no Mag boosting gear a level 25 character can toss around low 4-digit AoE Cure3s. It doesn't matter how high spell power Mantra is, it can't compete with that under the design of not hitting Sabin. Similarly, Harvester/Sun Bath are able to nearly entirely heal the entire party at literally no cost. This makes it so that investing in stamina for the healing side of things is fairly pointless because you end up playing in a world where everyone is getting topped off by almost anything you toss out.

Combine this with the plethora of MP regen sources the player gets via items alone (a good amount of elixirs and ethers along with purchasable tinctures) makes Mantra only really viable if you build the entire party around Sabin just standing there and spamming Mantra. In addition, it's more than easy enough to get enough MP via +50% MP relics, MP ELs, cost reduction, or simply being self sufficient later on to the point where a player can easily just toss out the biggest stuff (short of X-Magic Locke) constantly...

It's less that Mantra/Chakra are weak and more that all the other options work at least as well without dedicating a character to mostly only be able to use those.

RegenX is not worth building a character stam for because all the characters that get RegenX also get Cure3, which is twice the power (when cast AoE). Harvester/Sun Bath are free and with just stam gear (and Blizz orb) and no ELs a level 25 Gau will heal for around 475 HP (about 70% of the HP of a character without HP ELs or boosting gear) with Harvester, double that for Sun Bath. These are being done at Super Gau Speed as well, so he's not unlikely to (potentially) get 2 of these off between enemy attacks. And that's not even accounting for Harvester's use as AoE Remedy.

The only stats that can matter enough for EL investment for healing is +MP (just so you don't run out at the wrong time) or +Speed (Faster turn = faster recovery). I think this may be the heart of the issue. Why build someone for healing? Stam Sabin is pretty much for healing as his offensive capabilities aren't that great and his ability to take hits 'and' cover/counter isn't really that good compared to your bulkier characters.

3 hours ago, Nowea said:

Something that could be touched on regarding Sabin. Something that is indirectly responsible for Stam Sabin basically falling off... The access to healing that a player gets grows faster than the need for it does. Even with 0 EL investment and no Mag boosting gear a level 25 character can toss around low 4-digit AoE Cure3s. It doesn't matter how high spell power Mantra is, it can't compete with that under the design of not hitting Sabin. Similarly, Harvester/Sun Bath are able to nearly entirely heal the entire party at literally no cost. This makes it so that investing in stamina for the healing side of things is fairly pointless because you end up playing in a world where everyone is getting topped off by almost anything you toss out.

Combine this with the plethora of MP regen sources the player gets via items alone (a good amount of elixirs and ethers along with purchasable tinctures) makes Mantra only really viable if you build the entire party around Sabin just standing there and spamming Mantra. In addition, it's more than easy enough to get enough MP via +50% MP relics, MP ELs, cost reduction, or simply being self sufficient later on to the point where a player can easily just toss out the biggest stuff (short of X-Magic Locke) constantly...

It's less that Mantra/Chakra are weak and more that all the other options work at least as well without dedicating a character to mostly only be able to use those.

RegenX is not worth building a character stam for because all the characters that get RegenX also get Cure3, which is twice the power (when cast AoE). Harvester/Sun Bath are free and with just stam gear (and Blizz orb) and no ELs a level 25 Gau will heal for around 475 HP (about 70% of the HP of a character without HP ELs or boosting gear) with Harvester, double that for Sun Bath. These are being done at Super Gau Speed as well, so he's not unlikely to (potentially) get 2 of these off between enemy attacks. And that's not even accounting for Harvester's use as AoE Remedy.

The only stats that can matter enough for EL investment for healing is +MP (just so you don't run out at the wrong time) or +Speed (Faster turn = faster recovery). I think this may be the heart of the issue. Why build someone for healing? Stam Sabin is pretty much for healing as his offensive capabilities aren't that great and his ability to take hits 'and' cover/counter isn't really that good compared to your bulkier characters.

This. This so much. I'm so glad that someone else sees this issue.

Sounds like the solution is a "global" nerf to healing, revival, item healing, and MP restoration capabilities?

On 11.6.2018 at 10:57 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

This. This so much. I'm so glad that someone else sees this issue.

Sounds like the solution is a "global" nerf to healing, revival, item healing, and MP restoration capabilities?

Healing really gets ubiquitous later into the game.
Anything with Cure 3 can serve the purpose of a "strong" healer.
Anything with high mag and cure 2 can serve as a "strong" healer.
And basically anyone is decent enough at backup healing.

And Sabin tends to take a lot of damage from enemies, too(Surviving thanks to his HP)... Which means: He REALLY wants heals. But he can't heal himself... Very counter-intuitive. Basically: Whenever I need healing, Sabin is not a good choice. After big AoEs, he is oftentimes in the biggest need of healing. Aside from that, I have no use for a medium AoE heal if I need a big single target heal.

Seems like the three biggest issues with stamina Sabin are:

-He cannot heal himself

-He cannot go on the offensive

-Everyone else can heal the party and do it better

I assume that the game wants us to use Sabin's Drain spell when his HP is low, as the hit% is based off stamina. But when your trying to heal the party constantly you simply don't have time for this. If mantra were to set regen on him this would be a nice workaround because it would help heal him without it becoming another slots.

Having his elemental blitz tied to stamina makes perfect sense, vig Sabin deals element damage via claws whereas stam Sabin deals element damage via blitz. This would give stamina Sabin more offensive options other than just Aurabolt, something he desperately needs.

Cyan is a better healer than stam Sabin, I'm not joking. Give Cyan the Hero Ring and a wind sword and just have him spam Cure2 while he uses Empowerer every so often to top up his MP. Cyan ends up being a better healer AND bodyguard than Sabin. You will come to this result if you compare him to every other character, they can all heal and then some whereas stamina Sabin can ONLY heal.

Stamina Sabin has one good thing going for him and that's Chakra. Compared to his brother Chakra is far better, at least from what I've seen. Chakra and Mana Battery both end up doing about the same amount of MP healing but Sabin can heal the entire party while Edgar can only recharge one character, slowly at that. I think the Mana Battery is in need of a buff as I find that Edgar becomes stuck using the damn thing every turn until you just throw an Ether at them instead. Besides, by the time you get Mana Battery/Chackra all of your mages have decent enough MP already and you already have plenty of ways of healing MP: Osmose/Soul Sabre/Raid/Ethers. The only ones who need the mana batteries are X-mage Lock and Rerise Shadow.

Mana Battery can be boosted by Nirvana. Chakra cannot. Mana Battery ought to be significantly stronger than Chakra, but limited to only one person at a time. The amount of people who need MP support, however, is a concern. It's really only Relm, X-Locke, X-Mog, and Rerise Shadow who truly appreciate the help. Terra & Celes do prior to the Gem / Soul Box as well, but then they get it, and whelp, who cares. Also, no one loves X-Mog, so it's really only X-Locke, Relm, and Rerise Shadow, one of who is niche and the other who still technically has Osmose. (and, if its only one or two, just dedicate your Ether supply to them).

***

To side-step into something else about Sabin, I've seen discussion recently regarding Sabin's frailty, slow speed as a healer, and endgame armors. So, quick points b/c I can't talk much right now:

Mirage Vest

Hard to obtain, less popular in use b/c its not clearly better than Dark Gear. Me and Vaylen discussed this a week ago. How about one of either A) one Mirage Vest can be obtained outside of the Colosseum, or B) Mirage Vest gets a vigor+ (+5 or +7), making it more desirable? It's got Mg.Eva+20, Spd+7, and auto-haste to make it desirable for a healer build, it's just so hard to obtain.

Light Robe

Sabin's got m.def armor, but it's only for the early WoR, and maybe not quite enough for the poor guy. Aesthetically, there ought to be a Force Robe of sorts, but we've got a Force Armor instead.

One proposition here is for the Light Robe to provide one elemental resistance.

The other proposition here is for the Force Armor to be the Force Robe instead. This hurts Edgar, Setzer, and Cyan, so something would have to be done for them to re-gain a magical armor. Thankfully, having both Diamond and Crystal Mail is redundant, so one of those can be re-designed into a mini magical armor of sorts. This gives Sabin a +70 mg.def, Resist Fire/Ice/bolt robe that has poor p.def and p.eva, favoring the back row, where stam Sabin wants to be. Slap a +5 or +7 stamina on it, and stam Sabin's got an armor that vig Sabin doesn't care for.

Royal Jacket

It'd be nice if Edgar had some reason for wanting to equip the Royal Jacket, especially if Sabin suddenly has other endgame armors he cares for equipping.

Helmet

Uh, probably nothing. stam Sabin's got Red Cap and Skull Cap, that's probably decent enough. It's a shame that vig Sabin's ultimate is the Tiger Mask, but that's not the current discussion, and as vig Sabin is rather awesome, let's drop this.

I second the Force Robe recommendation.

The Force Robe sounds nice, but your cutting off more physical based characters from having magic defense to give magic users even more magic defense. Instead of getting 4 Force Armor you should instead find 2 Force Armor and 2 Force Robes, maybe have them trade for each other in the colosseum.

Also +1 to stam on spears, finding a mirage vest outside colosseum, and a relic that gives Relm Interceptor

Relm can already get Interceptor without using a relic slot. It's what I always do because I've never enjoyed Shadow.

22 minutes ago, Shax said:

Relm can already get Interceptor without using a relic slot. It's what I always do because I've never enjoyed Shadow.

People that enjoy Shadow shouldn't just fucked, though. Luckily, I have a bug that gives both Relm AND Shadow interceptor at the same time. Nice bug.


Force Robe sounds like a good idea. Stats are up for discussion there. I also really like the idea of Sabin's elemental Blitzes being stam-based. Not much of a reason to not let one of his builds be able to spec into them: They'll still do work when appropriate on Vig Sabin even.

2 hours ago, Mr. Ultima said:

The Force Robe sounds nice, but your cutting off more physical based characters from having magic defense to give magic users even more magic defense. Instead of getting 4 Force Armor you should instead find 2 Force Armor and 2 Force Robes, maybe have them trade for each other in the colosseum.

Thanks.

Force Armor and Force Robe both share Terra, Celes, and Mog as people who can equip these armors. So, that'd be unchanged. Strago and Gogo gaining Force Robe, yes, is redundant with their Hides.

If its possible programming wise, having both with some Colosseum trades is interesting. 2 of both might be a little much, I'd rather see 2-3 total

5 minutes ago, Vaylen said:

People that enjoy Shadow shouldn't just fucked, though. Luckily, I have a bug that gives both Relm AND Shadow interceptor at the same time. Nice bug.

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

6 minutes ago, Shax said:

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

I think the problem is tying "Relm with Interceptor" into the core definition of who stam Relm is. If Interceptor is to remain as an Easter Egg, then I want to see Interceptor revert back to doing magic-based damage when guarding Relm while we look for a proper definition of who stam Relm is and what her role on the team is.

8 minutes ago, Shax said:

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

The need only arises when you talk about a Relm build that needs Interceptor. Getting Interceptor on her sacrifices too much(Highest dps, best image/haste setter, arguably best rerise setter, dispell user).
So yeah, you are fucked if you want a Relm build that relies on Interceptor, but still want to have Shadow.
I just go my happy-go-buggy way, for the time being.

Edit: Basically what that funny guy said

Fair enough, although basing a build around interceptor seems kinda unreliable IMO. I'm not really against expanding Interceptor for Relm, just questioning the reason like the contrarian I end up being.

I honestly don't know why I dislike shadow so much considering I should adore him on paper. Every time I save him I forget to use him and I don't have any memories of being impressed by him. Maybe if I had a more concrete plan/combo in mind things could be different.

Shax, you are in good company. Despite being a "veteran" with Shadow being a "veteran" character, I still dislike the guy. He's too frail and there's no build variety for me to explore. These aren't bad aspects of his design, and I respect his power, but I dislike the guy. Don't like him story-wise either.

Oh, and yeah, I could care less for basing a build around Interceptor to.

1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Thanks.

Force Armor and Force Robe both share Terra, Celes, and Mog as people who can equip these armors. So, that'd be unchanged. Strago and Gogo gaining Force Robe, yes, is redundant with their Hides.

If its possible programming wise, having both with some Colosseum trades is interesting. 2 of both might be a little much, I'd rather see 2-3 total

It would definitely be possible to have them trade for each other in the coliseum. The main issue is text space. If you open up the ROM with FF3usME you can edit the coliseum battles and choose which items trade into which. You can also edit the stats on weapons/armor. Neither of these effect game space at all. What would be difficult is making text space for the item to say "Halves Ice/Fire/Bolt Damage." More text space is probably possible via ROM expansion or by changing terminology that is already there. A good example would be changing the term "Stronger in 2 Hands" to "Stronger 2 Handed" as the first uses 19 bits(characters including spaces) whereas the latter is only 17. Only a 2 bit difference but could free up a bit of space if all instances of the quote were changed.

Also having 3 Force Armor/Robes sounds like the perfect amount, 2 is too little while 4 is overkill.

There is definitely room to change terminology so as to save on space. Looking in FF3usME (I've been lazy about actually looking at this stuff lately), there's also definitely some blank spaces in the programming (that aren't even being used as place markers of sorts), so that's not an issue either. So, iow, it is feasible to fit it in there. Issue is do we want to, where does it go, what's the changes to the Colosseum trading sequences (that's a nightmare).

Nice to see we're in agreement on 3 of the Force stuff.

I'll propose a concern that I don't want Force Robe to come too quickly after the Light Robe, lest the Light Robe become outdated immediately after its bought. So...not on the Wind dragon, at least. Might also consider giving Light Robe an elemental resistance, since I suspect it's undervalued?

Another concern is that both Force Armor and Force Robe looks odd for Terra, Celes, and Mog. Since, currently, they're the exact same armor, just with different equips. Also, Force Robe is redundant on Strago and Gogo. I guess we could have Robe be a Te / Ce / Sa / Mo equip, while Armor is Ed / Cy / Se equip (3 is odd, but oh well). Does mean, in Kefka's, there might be some Force juggling you can no longer do, which I guess is fine.

Only last concern is whether Force Robe ought to have stam+ (this is being developed b/c of stam Sabin, after all), and if so, what are the values of stam+ and mag+ on it?

If the Force Robe and Force Armor trade for each other than i don't think it will affect the coliseum too much.

The best way to go about naturally finding the Force Robe is to have it replace the Force Armor found in the Fanatics Tower. Elemental resistance on light robe sounds nice.

The +stam +mag on the Force Robe would fit in with pretty much all four of them. Obviously Sabin increasing stamina while providing nice magic defense. Terra has morph and therefore will always benefit from stamina. Celes has regen, but she also has fractional magic which have hit% based off stamina. Mog requires a mix of stam & mag for dancing, so that one is already covered. Only problem here is what will Sabin do with that +7 Magic.

While on the topic of changing terminology, I propose that the term "Status Ailments" be replaced with "Debuffs." I personally believe it's a much better term and will save a ton of text space.

I don’t think that Force Armor and Robe are both needed.  Cyan, Edgar, and Setzer can use Diamond and Crystal for Mg def, giving those some longevity (lazy shell too? I forget if they can equip that).  Plus all of them are tanks, not every character needs a perfect option for every scenario.  Furthermore, if Sabin is wearing a robe, that frees up the Royal jacket, so Edgar still has another option.  Additionally, even Stam Cyan wants Genji to get the vigor for C/C, so the only one really losing out is Setzer.  But I don’t see why he can’t be a robe wearer, hell his sprite is wearing a robe.

If Sabin’s blitzes stay magic based, there’s your use for the +7 magic.

Tons of great ideas in this thread.

+1-ing stam on spears, changing force armor into force robe and either diamond or crystal into something force armor-esque, HP/Stam from Odin, Fire Dance and Sonic Boom as stam blitzes, and upping the status resist and regen ticks from Stamina in general.

I still think an event would be better than a relic for putting Interceptor on Relm if for no other reason than to not let her and Shadow have him at the same time, but a relic that you trade the memento ring for would also be really good.

Also I didn't know about stamina influencing Drain and Gravity spells, I guess that's something nice for Locke, Sabin, Cyan, and Celes. Does it also affect Quarter procs from the Gravity Rod and Drain procs from the Blood Sword?

Stamina influencing Drain, Gravity, etc, is misinformation. Unfortunately, the Printme is unclear and needs to be fixed.

You have a (Stamina / 128) % chance of dodging a Drain, Gravity, Doom, or status spell. This is global. No status, gravity, drain, etc, actually has any more accuracy than any other, to my knowledge, nor can its accuracy be boosted. It's just a stamina-based chance to evade the attack.

To clarify, I mention "stamina affecting status resistance" because I find that it's much more reliable to equip for tanking these attacks (immunities, earth resist) or to just heal them off rather than to rely on dodging them. Most especially for the debuffs, of which, more than half are either instant-death or remove control from the player or even actively turn your own party against you. The other half, while less bad, is still "hit completely or miss completely", with most character's stamina not rising much beyond a 50% dodge rate, and that only in the latter part of the game.

***

@BTB, I know I'm stubborn as a mule, so to try and be a little more broad-minded: the current Aurabolt would be an acceptable attack on stam Sabin if A) extreme amounts of stamina (110+) are stacked, and B) if the Nirvana Band is equipped. The latter is generally undesirable and seems unpopular for a reason (instead of b/c of difficulty understanding or using), while the latter is only equipped on stam Sabin b/c one wants to boost Aurabolt's damage (which isn't stam Sabin's main asset, nor should it be; Chakra is). So, if stam-based Air Blade is still off the table (I can understand not wanting even more AoE attacks, as there are a little too many strong ones right now), might I request we look into what can be done to make the Nirvana Band a desirable equip for stam Sabin? (Removing it entirely and buffing stam-based damage is the alternative, but aesthetically undesirable, option). Even with only ~90 stamina, Nirvana Aurabolt at least finally starts breaking the 3k mark by endgame. Still not enough without extreme stamina stacking, but hey, Nirvana on Sabin is an aesthetic undesirable situation, so it's still a plus to look into this.

I’ve been giving this some thought and here is what I think. Stam based elemtal Blitz sounds nice but ultimately make Sabin’s synergy with magic atrocious as the only thing magic will affect is Quake. The fact that Sabin has 2 AoE Blitz that scale off magic is a little redundant, changing these to scale off stamina will be just as redundant.

Therefore, I instead of changing both Fire Dance and Sonic Boom to scale off stamina we should instead have only 1 scale off stamina. If one of them stay magic based vig Sabin would still have a decent AoE. We have two options, here are my thoughts on both:

-Fire Dance: While seeming like a nice option at first, as you get this Blitz around the same time you get your first batch of espers, it would do more harm than good. Sabin would have zero magic synergy until he gets Quake or Sonic Boom, both of which come at late game.

-Sonic Boom: Should function as an “in-between” with Fire Dance and Quake and should also switch places with Chakra. This would change stam Sabin’s function completely. He would no longer focus on being just a healer but rather his main asset would be AoE effects. Sonic Boom would be his main attack while Fire Dance would serve for enemies that are resistant/immune to wind or enemies that are weak to fire. Quake would be more powerful but would require a bit of setup. Mantra/Chakra are already AoE and having him be the only one with an AoE MP heal fits the build. Aurabolt could function as a powerful one hitter when necessary.

Along with the changes to Sonic Boom, Aurabolt should receive a bit of a buff to compete with AoE attacks. Mantra should also give him regen as this would free up a relic slot and make his healing more viable, Mantra’s formula should also be changed to have stamina have a greater impact on it

Lastly, something that would make Sabin better in general, have the Duncan event teach Sabin all of his Blitz, like Cyan. This is a little OP as you could do this immediately after getting the airship. I suggest having a boss fight to test the player. Maybe a 1v1 with Sabin and Duncan?

+1 to having Odin EL’s be HP/Stam, would make Holy Wind/Raid more useful

OK, I'm emotionally conflicted, b/c I'm happy that my Odin = HP/Stam idea is catching on, but I give a big no to fundamentally changing stam Sabin's design.

• Chakra is unique. AoE isn't. Even outside BNW, Chakra is pretty unique for a jRPG. Chakra deserves to be in the fore-front, not put on the back burner.
• Any Blitz gotten at lvl.30 might as well not exist. Chakra coming that late is a sad end to a unique skill.
• There's all ready a lot of AoE options, many of them quite strong. Relm, Strago, Mog, Setzer, Shadow, Gau, and Edgar (half the cast) are all quite strong in terms of AoE. While there are balance issues here (see: Adamantite Rage), I'm not seeing room for adding an 8th dude into the mix (even 7 feels like a stretch), especially one whose whole identity is based around AoE. (After all, of those 7, who among them is completely defined strictly by their AoE?) If we did add an 8th person, Terra or Celes would be more fitting.
• Sabin's magic is a joke. 24 base, only enough equip options for 48 total, but if equipping the Nirvana for the precious +25% power, you can only get 41 magic. That's simply too low to make any WoR magic of Sabin's be useful (not without the spell power being equal or even stronger than endgame summons like Tritoch). Magic-based Fire Dance is fine, the numbers of the early game allow it to be useful despite Sabin's garbage magic stat.

Ultimately, I didn't recommend stamina-based Air Blade because of wanting stam Sabin to be an attacker. I recommended it so that he at least had some means of offense for the late WoR, after Aurabolt had dropped off. Air Blade can't even hit for 1000 damage in Kefka's without building Sabin for magic (lol). It's a joke. I'll even take Air Blade just having Aurabolt's power but being in AoE version, but it can't do even that without de-coupling it from his magic stat (and vigor ain't happenin').

Course, issue here is that Sabin isn't supposed to have good AoE. He only has Fire Dance because most your AoE dudes come late (give Celes an early game AoE, get rid of Fire Dance? It's more appropriate thematically). So perhaps the issue here is that there Air Blade shouldn't be AoE, or perhaps not exist at all, being replaced with something else entirely. Single-target Air Blade is easy enough: little extra power then Aurabolt, actually learn it in decent time, boom, done. Some other blitz? I'll let the creative people have fun, as creativity ain't my forte.

***

I'm sorry if I come across very rudely, abrasively, or like I'm putting you down despite being a newbie. Not my intent. I love and am grateful for seeing new players, I love the discussion ya'll have started, and ya'll have presented good ideas. I'm, for better or worse, very opinionated, stubborn as a mule, and have a tendency to dominate the conversation. (It's genetic). I hope you can look past my bull-headedness and forgive a veteran coming down hardly on a new guy to see why I'm concerned with what you presented.

Sonic Boom is the only Blitz I NEVER use — I couldn't even tell you what the inputs are for it. I fully support any change that makes it (or a replacement for it) worth using.

What about a Blitz akin to what Vargas uses to blow away the rest of the party before Sabin wrecks him? Could be a shite wind damage AoE akin to what we have now, with a rider effect of possibly Sneezing a target from the battle. Could something like this be handy for LLG/NHT runs?

Edit: I guess that's what Warp is for, on second thought. Carry on.

2 hours ago, SirNewtonFig said:

Sonic Boom is the only Blitz I NEVER use — I couldn't even tell you what the inputs are for it. I fully support any change that makes it (or a replacement for it) worth using.

What about a Blitz akin to what Vargas uses to blow away the rest of the party before Sabin wrecks him? Could be a shite wind damage AoE akin to what we have now, with a rider effect of possibly Sneezing a target from the battle. Could something like this be handy for LLG/NHT runs?

Edit: I guess that's what Warp is for, on second thought. Carry on.

I love this idea, a late game insta-kill would be much more appropriate for an ability gained at level 30 than a fairly weak AoE that most people will never touch. And much like Cyan's Cleave and Strago's X-Zone it would be great on Sabin regardless of his build, therefore giving his stamina build something nice for random encounters. I don't know if having a third guy with an AoE instant kill would be good for balance though (4 if you count Mog X-casting Doom), so maybe it would only target one enemy but remove the ability to counter it like X-Zone does?

4 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

OK, I'm emotionally conflicted, b/c I'm happy that my Odin = HP/Stam idea is catching on.

Guess the idea is to make C/C Strago viable and give him the HP to survive it. It is strange how unnecessary Stam+2 is on Strrago, though... My Strago has 79 Stam with just 10 Carbuncle lvls.

 

10 hours ago, Vaylen said:

Guess the idea is to make C/C Strago viable and give him the HP to survive it. It is strange how unnecessary Stam+2 is on Strrago, though... My Strago has 79 Stam with just 10 Carbuncle lvls.

 

No, Strago has no business Covering allies, not with his low p.def and HP. Sides, he's got Refract for that. HP is because HP is an actual, you know, tanking stat.

2 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

No, Strago has no business Covering allies, not with his low p.def and HP. Sides, he's got Refract for that. HP is because HP is an actual, you know, tanking stat.

But everything that has access to HP ends up bulky. Something that Strago simply is not meant to be.

My idea was HP +15 to match Golem (or +20, whatever it is that Golem is now). For someone like Strago, that's still enough for 3-5 ELs to be useful on any build, but it limits how tanky he can become. (Pure Odin would gut his attacking stat without being quite as rewarding as it would be with a stronger HP esper). He's definitely supposed to be tankier than Relm & Shadow, what, with that absurd stamina of his. And he'd still get absurd stamina, but also some a little more HP to boot.

Might still be an idea that works best of Strago has an actual defensive use for stamina, but at least it isn't purely dependent on such.

Being a useful dip for his mag build is also very important, considering how late Odin is "generally" gotten.

14 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

My idea was HP +15 to match Golem (or +20, whatever it is that Golem is now). For someone like Strago, that's still enough for 3-5 ELs to be useful on any build, but it limits how tanky he can become. (Pure Odin would gut his attacking stat without being quite as rewarding as it would be with a stronger HP esper). He's definitely supposed to be tankier than Relm & Shadow, what, with that absurd stamina of his. And he'd still get absurd stamina, but also some a little more HP to boot.

Might still be an idea that works best of Strago has an actual defensive use for stamina, but at least it isn't purely dependent on such.

Being a useful dip for his mag build is also very important, considering how late Odin is "generally" gotten.

I see where you are going, but I believe just about 5 points would make him too tanky for his design. HP is kind of a stat that easily escalates in powerlevel, isn't it?
With just 5 +15 HP ELs and, say, a Red Cap... Strago wouldn't really feel fragile at all anymore. Not tanky, sure - but he wouldn't be at risk of dying very often. I think this is precisely why he cannot have HP ELs, sound as that idea may... sound on paper.

I wouldn't mind that, honestly. All the other frail characters are insanely fast, which means that if they die and get ressed they don't take forever and a half to get their next turn. Also, Strago would gain access to HP ELs in one of the very last dungeons in the game (by difficulty). He'd still be plenty frail for the vast majority of the game, and he really wants his magic EL to shine so you can't just dump HP on him and call it a day. Unless you want a Holy Wind slave or something (which is arguably the worst MT heal when it comes to recovering from a strong AoE attack)

1 minute ago, SpoonyBard said:

I wouldn't mind that, honestly. All the other frail characters are insanely fast, which means that if they die and get ressed they don't take forever and a half to get their next turn. Also, Strago would gain access to HP ELs in one of the very last dungeons in the game (by difficulty). He'd still be plenty frail for the vast majority of the game, and he really wants his magic EL to shine so you can't just dump HP on him and call it a day. Unless you want a Holy Wind slave or something (which is arguably the worst MT heal when it comes to recovering from a strong AoE attack)

Not wrong. I, myself, am not really opposed to the idea. On the other hand, I see the reasons against giving him access to HP ELs quite clearly.
It would be nice if there'd be some way to open up an actual stam build for him - HP ELs won't help out too much in that regard.

3 hours ago, SpoonyBard said:

I wouldn't mind that, honestly. All the other frail characters are insanely fast, which means that if they die and get ressed they don't take forever and a half to get their next turn. Also, Strago would gain access to HP ELs in one of the very last dungeons in the game (by difficulty). He'd still be plenty frail for the vast majority of the game, and he really wants his magic EL to shine so you can't just dump HP on him and call it a day. Unless you want a Holy Wind slave or something (which is arguably the worst MT heal when it comes to recovering from a strong AoE attack)

I'll add on that at least part of my thinking is subjective: Strago by design is frail and slow, a reason people have pointed out for disliking stam Sabin as a healer. However, he's not slow. With Odin, Thunderguard, Dark Hood, Moogle Hide, and various relics such as Zephyr Cape, Stat Stick, Black Belt, White Cape, Knight Cape (back row only), he can break 50 speed without really sacrificing anything equipment wise. (Because, let's face it, without extreme set-ups or specific battles, Strago's not a top-tier or even upper-tier dps character, so losing Crystal Orb, Sage Stone, or extra mag+ / MP+ isn't really that big of a loss for him. Also, his support skillset is cheap and he's got Raid). This is all unlike Cyan, who has to make some sacrifices to even break 40 speed. Lose Genji Helm, lose Power Glove or Nirvana Band, etc.

Strago's design looks and feels like he's supposed to be tankier than Shadow and Relm, not trying to run as fast as them, so I'm suggesting a minor endgame HP esper alongside the loss of at least some speed equipment access (Dark Hood being, by far, the easiest).

5 hours ago, Vaylen said:

I see where you are going, but I believe just about 5 points would make him too tanky for his design. HP is kind of a stat that easily escalates in powerlevel, isn't it?
With just 5 +15 HP ELs and, say, a Red Cap... Strago wouldn't really feel fragile at all anymore. Not tanky, sure - but he wouldn't be at risk of dying very often. I think this is precisely why he cannot have HP ELs, sound as that idea may... sound on paper.

Honestly, I don't see HP Strago as breaking anything. Gau's got Snow Muffler, with +60 p.def, Ice/Wind immunity, and HP+25%, which means he can then go an equip a helmet better than Red Cap. Run spd ELs for 90+ speed and Tumbleweed Rage (status immunites, auto-regen, Water absorb), and healer Gau is lightning fast and surprisingly bulky. Even if Strago gets the game's weakest HP esper, I'm not sure he's necessarily getting any bulkier than what all ready exists in the game for the frail characters. So, while I understand the argument, unless you also argue for something happening to Gau, I see the argument as null and void.

Or take Relm. Unlike Strago, she still has a strong AoE heal (RegenX) that also heals herself when she equips the Black Heart, unlike Holy Wind. Combine with her various status resistances (shields, hides) and spd+, stam+ (stamina actually making her heal better), and healer Relm is arguably just as bulky as this hypothetical HP Strago while also being faster and having a significantly superior heal option. (This whole set-up being stam Relm's one good use).

So, again, HP Strago isn't actually anything that the game doesn't all ready give for the frail characters. An actual HP esper is more readily accessible to a new player, rather than these set-ups (esp. that Relm one), true, but it's also counterattacked by how late the esper comes, its slow growth, and the fact that HP Strago's lack of magic makes him somewhat single-minded (spam Refract, Shell, and Holy Wind, with minor contributions from X-Zone and elemental sniping).

Also, HP Strago is still significantly below the likes of heavy armor HP+30 characters (Terra, Setzer, Edgar; Edgar also having an HP+50% spear). I'm doubtful as to whether or not he'd actually rise up the bulkiness level of even Locke, Sabin, or Cyan. This change honestly brings him up from being tied with Shadow & Relm for being frailest to being tied with Gau for second frailest, without going outside of what the game all ready gives.

3 hours ago, Vaylen said:

Not wrong. I, myself, am not really opposed to the idea. On the other hand, I see the reasons against giving him access to HP ELs quite clearly.
It would be nice if there'd be some way to open up an actual stam build for him - HP ELs won't help out too much in that regard.

I don't think that can happen without a significant change to what stamina does universally or a significant change to Strago. Even then, Strago's naturally high stamina may still mean he's perfectly fine with a stam+1 esper, which is what I'm still giving.

Course, that's also speculation on my part. It could turn out that a better stamina means Strago really does want stam+2. I'm doubtful, but it could. Thing is, stamina or Strago has to change first, so it's a question of when, or even if, that ever happens.

On 6/14/2018 at 6:45 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

Sabin's magic is a joke. 24 base, only enough equip options for 48 total, but if equipping the Nirvana for the precious +25% power, you can only get 41 magic. That's simply too low to make any WoR magic of Sabin's be useful (not without the spell power being equal or even stronger than endgame summons like Tritoch). Magic-based Fire Dance is fine, the numbers of the early game allow it to be useful despite Sabin's garbage magic stat.

My main issue with making both of Sabin's AoE blitz stamina based is that it gets rid of his magic synergy. Every character seems to synergize with the 4 essential stats in some way. Shadow, for example, uses magic for his scrolls. Cyan syncs with magic for his healing power. Hell, even Strago/Relm sync with vigor in order too use Rods/Brushes. Sabin's magic is a tolal joke, yes, but it should still have some use. If both of his AoE blitz used stamina he might as well have no magic at all. I also believe that his low magic can be mitigated with the introduction of the Force Robe, perhaps also include a magic cap of some sorts for him and Gau, I think they could benefit greatly from one.

On 6/14/2018 at 6:45 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

Any Blitz gotten at lvl.30 might as well not exist.

This is the exact reason that Sabin should have a way to learn them all at once, similar to Cyan. The master Duncan event would be perfect for this. Another idea, drawing inspiration from the auto crossbow, have the Duncan event increase the power of his Blitz (Bum Rush would need a bit of a nerfing to compensate.) I know Cyan's dream is suppose to be done mid/late WoR but this is why I suggested the boss battle with Duncan in order to prevent players from getting all his Blitz as soon as you get the airship.

1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Strago's design looks and feels like he's supposed to be tankier than Shadow and Relm, not trying to run as fast as them

The man used to hunt monsters, he should be able to take a couple hits before going down.

On 6/14/2018 at 9:46 PM, JohnFuklaw said:

I love this idea, a late game insta-kill would be much more appropriate for an ability gained at level 30 than a fairly weak AoE that most people will never touch. And much like Cyan's Cleave and Strago's X-Zone it would be great on Sabin regardless of his build, therefore giving his stamina build something nice for random encounters. I don't know if having a third guy with an AoE instant kill would be good for balance though (4 if you count Mog X-casting Doom), so maybe it would only target one enemy but remove the ability to counter it like X-Zone does?

I second this idea, everything becomes a lot more "gimmicky" near the end. Mabye also have Fire Dance apply a dubuff of some sort?

The problem with everyone having a use for their 4 main stats is that, well, both vigor and magic are really just "offense" stats, so it's only natural that some folks just only care about one offense and not the other. Strago / Relm really don't care all that much for their vigor stat, and Sabin really doesn't care all that much for his magic stat. Not really any way to avoid that without expanding one of the two stats into something besides "offense."

On 16.6.2018 at 6:12 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

Honestly, I don't see HP Strago as breaking anything. Gau's got Snow Muffler, with +60 p.def, Ice/Wind immunity, and HP+25%, which means he can then go an equip a helmet better than Red Cap. Run spd ELs for 90+ speed and Tumbleweed Rage (status immunites, auto-regen, Water absorb), and healer Gau is lightning fast and surprisingly bulky. Even if Strago gets the game's weakest HP esper, I'm not sure he's necessarily getting any bulkier than what all ready exists in the game for the frail characters. So, while I understand the argument, unless you also argue for something happening to Gau, I see the argument as null and void.

Or take Relm. Unlike Strago, she still has a strong AoE heal (RegenX) that also heals herself when she equips the Black Heart, unlike Holy Wind. Combine with her various status resistances (shields, hides) and spd+, stam+ (stamina actually making her heal better), and healer Relm is arguably just as bulky as this hypothetical HP Strago while also being faster and having a significantly superior heal option. (This whole set-up being stam Relm's one good use).

So, again, HP Strago isn't actually anything that the game doesn't all ready give for the frail characters. An actual HP esper is more readily accessible to a new player, rather than these set-ups (esp. that Relm one), true, but it's also counterattacked by how late the esper comes, its slow growth, and the fact that HP Strago's lack of magic makes him somewhat single-minded (spam Refract, Shell, and Holy Wind, with minor contributions from X-Zone and elemental sniping).

Also, HP Strago is still significantly below the likes of heavy armor HP+30 characters (Terra, Setzer, Edgar; Edgar also having an HP+50% spear). I'm doubtful as to whether or not he'd actually rise up the bulkiness level of even Locke, Sabin, or Cyan. This change honestly brings him up from being tied with Shadow & Relm for being frailest to being tied with Gau for second frailest, without going outside of what the game all ready gives.

Just about 5 points of +15 HP EL would turn Strago significantly more survivable - this is mainly due to hitting certain strong HP points. Not to mention, Strago easily has 10 points to spare.

But, on a whole, he wouldn't get downright "tanky" at all - he'd just not be REALLY fragile(And could probably survive a lot better in the front row, which isnt bad). It really is more of a question of "Do we want him to be less frail or not?" - not a balance decision. As mentioned, I wouldn't really object to the change. I simply think it would betray his core design.
And going just by comparison is... not much of an argument. Gau is designed to have quirky defences for many situations and, as a character that may very well front-row, needs a bit more defence. Shadow has his insane dodge. Strago is really only in the same camp as Relm - and her healing capabilities are always better than Strago's, so that's not a good comparison axis. I mean, your point actually did not defend the HP Strago idea, quite the contrary...

So, the questions are...
Would a +15 HP Esper conflict too much with Strago's core theme?
Would it actually change much of anything for Strago?
Is there any need/desire to make him more bulky?

I see the conflict with his core theme - but, as you mentioned, it really doesnt turn him into an actually bulky character.
I do not see a lot of a change for Strago(This is more tied to the stam thing).
I also see only very little need to make him more bulky via an HP Esper.

The change certainly would make the Odin get more exciting in general, give it more of a purpose and is better than stam+2 on a character with tons of stam by nature. There is the bit of synergy in terms of "front row Strago needs more bulk", so I see that - but question for the need of that existing(Currently, at least, Rod-Strago feels like more of a gimmick).
If one just wants to make Odin a more exciting choice, HP+ is a valid option and surely, it is not as problematic as I made it out to be - which is why I wouldn't mind the change.

Fair enough.

***

So, uh, back to Chakra. I've said that I think stam Sabin's critical issue is that Chakra's synergy with mages isn't as desirable as it ought be because of either the abundance of methods for said mages to be fairly independent (as Nowea and I have pointed out: MP+50%, MP+ espers, lategame Ether / Tincture supply, Gem & Soul Box, Raid / Osmose, Love Sonata). Too few magic users needing Chakra support = statistically unlikely for Chakra to find use in natural play (aka, requires pre-planning a specific party set-up). So, thinking specifically of whose synergy with Chakra ought to be looked at:

• Terra. Chakra definitely helps in the mid-WoR b/c of the price tag on tier-3's and Life 2. In theory, she'd also like Chakra for Ultima spam as well. But she's got a lot of MP+ options, plus Gem Box for the endgame. Seems pretty simple: look at MP+50% availability, endgame Ether / Tincture supply, and perhaps consider a slightly weaker Gem Box (2/3 cost, instead of 1/2?). Heck, even changing Cure 3's price tag is an option here, but that's another can of worms entirely.
• Celes...OK, like Terra, she does care for Chakra support mid-WoR b/c of the price tag on Ice 3. She also can't grow her MP as fast as Terra. It would seem like addressing Terra would address Celes as well, except Celes' endgame magic is different from Terra's. Unlike Ultima, Holy is the same power as earlier magics (Ice 3), but cheaper and defense-ignoring, while her healing is still Cure 2 & Rerise just scaled b/c of Celes' stats and possibly the Crystal Orb. Bolt 3 comes endgame, but, eh. So...uhh....something, something, Merton? Except Sabin's somewhat counter-synergistic with Merton, being unable to equip a Flameguard to get Merton healing. Also, Think's new patch makes Sabin even more counter-synergistic with Merton (can't even get immunity anymore). So....uhh....yeah, aside from whatever happens with Terra, synergy with Celes is a bit of a lost cause.
• Locke definitely appreciates Chakra support if he's going X-Magic, as it fuels more heavy usage of higher tier magic. What's more, Sabin certainly appreciates higher tier healing, what, with his high HP but low defenses. (Oh, and Fire immunity + fire magic = painless de-Frost). So, good synergy all ready exists. Nice. That said, this is only for X-Locke; other Locke set-ups need Chakra support less, if at all. So, the synergy here depends on how popular X-Locke use is.
• X-Mog, in theory, likes Chakra support. In fact, if he wants to use the Crystal Orb, he has to give up Moogle Charm, which means he pretty much needs Chakra (or Battery) support. Sabin even comes with Float for helping Mog use Quake, while Mog's Haste is helpful for the slower stam Sabin build (esp since Mirage Vest is unlikely). Problem is, X-Mog is unpopular, generally seen as (below) average, perhaps borderline satisfactory. Doesn't help that mag Mog has a plethora of other uses that don't care for Chakra support. So, something, something, X-Mog.
• Relm, with Osmose's nerf (this version, or previous? I forgot), less enemies having millions of MP (a change a few versions ago), and expensive magics, definitely does appreciate Chakra support nowadays.
• Strago, otoh, doesn't so much. While he's also been hurt by the Osmose nerf and the enemy MP changes, he's still got Raid. Actually, though, Raid might only be a secondary issue, especially considering its miss rate. Primary issue, I think, for Strago, is that most of his WoR magic and most of his support Lores are relatively cheap. Raze, X-Ice2, Refract, Holy Wind, Bad Breath, all pretty cheap. Dark and X-Zone are borderline, leaving his expensive magic limited to Tsunami, Black Omen, Shield, and Zoneseek. The expensive buffs aren't set frequently, so, uh, unless you're going for an ultra-high magic build with Crystal Orb equipped for Black Omen spam, Strago doesn't need Chakra too badly. It helps for the long stretch in Kefka's Tower, but more synergy could happen.
• Rerise Shadow likes Chakra support, but that's it from Shadow.
• Setzer uses magic, but really only healing magic, and Cure 3 is pretty inexpensive while being very powerful while Go Fish is a free Cure 2. He's not a bottomless pool of MP, but he can stretch his MP pretty far.
• Gogo appreciates Chakra support on certain set-ups, though Gogo can also equip Tools for some self-sustaining with Battery. His battery ain't the strongest though, while Life 2 works regardless of Gogo's magic, so, uh, yeah, he likes Chakra support on some set-ups.
• Edgar, Cyan, Gau, and especially Umaro and Sabin himself, are all lol.

Not every single character needs a change, just enough such that there's a statistically significant chance that stam Sabin will find a team to support in natural play (aka, without specific pre-planning to make him useful). Characters I'm eyeballing here are Terra, Setzer, Mog, and Strago. I wouldn't even know where to begin on anyone else.

***

Course, this is all assuming that I've got the right idea or even got the best arguments with those specific characters. Also, I'm essentially suggesting nerfs (except for Mog), which is never a fun time, and over-nerfing is just as big a potential problem as over-buffing (Relm's potentially in danger of being over-nerfed?). Furthermore, I'm suggesting such things based on character-character synergy and character-Item-equipment synergy, not just one character looked at solo, making this all the more difficult to analyze.

Still, thought I'd throw it out there.

Hmm... the one thing I am really seeing is nerfing Gem/Soul Box to increase chakra's usefulness in that way.
I feel "MP-Healing" is just a pretty "meh" main draw of a build in general. It shines with 2 specific builds(X-Locke and X-Mog) and is just nice-to-have at any other time - which is pretty weak for a main draw of a build. A Gem/Soul Box nerf/rework would make Celes appreciate Chakra a lot more(She hasn't the best MP growth and has a big little ELs to spare). Terra just has flat-out too much MP if you really want to, but a gem box nerf would also make her appreciate this.
So a nerf to MP-trivialization of that pair of items would go a long way for stam Sabin. Wouldn't even need to be only a nerf - could come with a buff to Gem/Soul. Those two trivilialize MP too much anyway.

But to make stam Sabin actually good, the creative minds need to work on something new, so that he doesn't just have chakra as a draw.

I know it's just brainstorming, but I'm honestly not too keen on the idea of nerfing the Gem/Soul boxes mp reduction when it's already a late game item that you only get one of, especially if it's only for the sake of trying to make Chakra more appealing.
Though if too much MP is really a problem I guess nerfing the Circlet to +25% mp could work to also make the Magic Cube a little more special, but then that creates a problem of why would you use the Circlet over the Red Cap in many instances.

Another thing I wanna comment on is that I notice items are being considered as a factor of how MP self sustaining a character is, but many casual players including myself are going to prefer the free option when possible even by KT at least for randoms, so that right there is why I would consider using Chakra with someone like Terra or Celes so that way I could save my supply of items for the bosses.
(And totally not also because I end up forgetting to stock up on items before going to KT and I'm already half-way through so I don't wanna have to go back, nope. )

I think the main issue is it's just that Chakra and Mantra are all Stamina Sabin really have to offer with an added bonus of being able to decently hit a Holy weakness with Aura Bolt which can be nice.
Maybe if Mantra leaned more heavily on Stamina instead of HP that would probably help, as it sounds like part of the problem is that Terrato Sabin steals some of Stam Sabin's thunder by being better at using Mantra, maybe change the its formula to 1/10 (Users Current HP + ((Stamina * 2) * Level))?
Another thing that could indirectly buff Stam Sabin is maybe buffing Sonic Boom to more appropriate end game power levels to like 42 or even 45, about the same power as Setzer's pre-nerf Airship Slots, which I think is fair considering even with Magic gear on and the Nirvana Band Sabin ends up with around a whopping 39 magic and doesn't get it until level 30 besides, while Setzer has access to a +2 Mag esper and starts with his Def Ignoring wave clear option that also sets Sap and doesn't have to level up for it so it made sense there why 45 power was too much.

Casual players forgetting to dip into their Ether / tincture supply is definitely a thing. It means that stam Sabin is valued more heavily by players who don't dip into this stuff, but because stam Sabin is also the oddball Sabin build who lacks for HP, he's also anti-synergistic with casual player use.

I'm not going to comment on which MP nerf is most fair for all players. Simply presenting ideas. I will comment that I think more could be done to make Strago appreciate Chakra a little more, like Relm does: not totally dependent on it, but it's still a nicety, whereas right now, he almost doesn't care.

Even if Mantra and Air Blade get modified or buffed (they should), stam Sabin still ain't the best attacker or HP healer. In fact, by Chakra supporting magic users, he's supporting other people who are better at healing and attacking. So, as ya'll touched onn, the core problem of being defined solely by Chakra is still there. Only two solutions exist for that though: another stam-based Blitz (replacing something currently there), or another (actually good) universal use for stamina. Only ideas I've had are status related, and I and some other (seibaby, I think) mentioned some ideas in Discord. Guess I forgot that my Force Robe idea does give stam Sabin some identity as being bulkier magically than vig Sabin, though, like Mantra and Air Blade, it's still not going to be enough if Chakra support, his core, isn't perceived as useful.

I'm not totally convinced that Chakra spam, in and of itself, is bad, as it sounds great to have an infinite MP supply in a jRPG. But I can see the other side, too, and I do support giving stamina a better identity with actually good universal uses, instead of what it currently is. Also, hyb Sabin exists.

Every turn Sabin uses chakra is a turn one of your other characters doesn't need to use a ether/osmosis and can instead use high cost spells with reckless abandon.

Relm doesn't need him because osmosis, but never having to spend a turn casting osmosis(which can miss) passively increases her dps and support utility. This applies to everyone obviously. Sabin using chakra indirectly gives other players "additional turns" so to speak.

Terra can equip MP+ gear and gem box making stam sabin weak, or she could equip other stuff and give the gembox to someone else while she is on a team with Sabin.

Strago can get by just fine by leveraging cheaper spells and osmosis, or he could cut loose and nuke everything.

The common theme I'm getting at here is that getting use out of stam Sabin requires you to fundamentally change how you build/equip/play the other characters on his team. Maybe I read wrong but it seems like the power of characters cutting loose with builds/gear optimized for infinite mp pools is being underestimated. Sure you can work around the mp costs in a few ways, but what if you don't have too? This is especially good for casual play and players who don't like using items very much. Expanding his usefulness outside of Chakra spambot seems the way to go imo. This kinda already happened with the stamina cover/counter update.  Sure he isn't super tanky on his own, but there is no reason not to buff the hell out of him with infinite mp. Put him on a team with re-raise and you have an undying zombie party guardian.

The problem with "cutting loose" is it hits on the problem that Nowea pointed out. Because the game's magic users have such easy access to MP+ and MP management options, they don't really sacrifice a lot of power or turn efficiency to manage their MP. (Also, the efficiency and power of the team has to be account for having one guy who ain't contributing anything power-wise and is also probably a net negative turn-wise because of his single-mindedness). Therefore, the difference in power / efficiency between cutting loose and managing MP is fairly small, or at least, much reduced from what you'd expect for a jRPG. Therefore, since the difference in power is small, the reward for cutting loose is small, which means that it's probably not worthwhile to dedicate a whole character build so that the other three members can cut loose. It's perhaps a decent argument for hybridizing a vigor Sabin with some stamina, but it means there's no reason to actually run stam Sabin proper.

In terms of building or equipping a character for cutting loose, there's really not much of a difference at all between "MP management" and "cutting loose." Much of the same equipment you use for beefing up your magical power is also the same stuff you use to increase MP pool or MP efficiency: Soul Saber, Circlet, Magic Cube, Soulgem Box, Crystal Orb, Sage Stone, Hero Ring (did I miss any?). Red Cap is really the only outlier. Also, a handful of MP ELs is immensely rewarding for any given character, whereas sacrificing those MP ELs for a little extra magic power is generally not very rewarding. Perhaps it's maybe, kinda-sorta rewarding for mag+2 folks come endgame (Celes, Strago), but Terra? Nope. Relm can't even de-couple her magic growth from her MP growth.

And this only concerns the 4 main mages. X-Mages? Two of them (Mog, Strago) are seen as below average set-ups to begin with, so why dedicate a whole 'nother character to them? It's only X-Locke. Course, there's still Setzer and Shadow, who have strategies that prefer Chakra support.

Tactically, for randoms & dungeon crawls, you have to judge whether or not there's a benefit to cutting loose vs. simply spamming status spells. (And then there's Strago, whose go-to mid-WoR move, Raze, is pretty cheap). If you can kill the enemy quickly, there's a benefit, but some enemies just plain need to be status'd, in which case, the benefit is much reduced.

On top of all of this, remember that Mana Battery exists, works even better for a single-target, and Edgar has more to him other than Battery spam. So, having Sabin not be so single-minded (better Mantra, stam-based Air Blade even if ST, Force Robe) is definitely something that needs to happen, but even still, you're specifically setting up a team of 2-3 mages for stam Sabin to really shine.

I wonder if the issue is less that stam Sabin sucks, but rather that Chakra sucks? Maybe he doesn't need or shouldn't have MP healing. I get that there's a cool synergy with Mantra (which, also isn't very good compared to almost all other healing options), but maybe it needs to be replaced with something totally different, but based on stamina?

Maybe the trade-off can be that vig Sabin is really awesome at single target damage and stam Sabin can be good at AoE damage (Fire Dance, Wind Whatever, and some replacements to Chakra and/or Mantra).

I also do agree with the idea that a general buff to stamina may be in order. Maybe making it more effective at the things it already does: tightening/reducing certain kinds of damage, higher regen ticks (so that it outpaces HP growth's boost to regen), more status evasion.

What if Chakra had MP healing over time? Have the power/number of tics based off stamina.

9 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Because the game's magic users have such easy access to MP+ and MP management options, they don't really sacrifice a lot of power or turn efficiency to manage their MP. (Also, the efficiency and power of the team has to be account for having one guy who ain't contributing anything power-wise and is also probably a net negative turn-wise because of his single-mindedness).

This also means stam Sabin doesn't actually need to single mindedly spam chakra and can still contribute at least every other turn. The question is: what does he contribute on non-chakra turns? Aura Bolt and Mantra, which the community consensus on seems to be "meh".  Increasing his impact on non-chakra turns like with a change to air blade or buffed aurabolt/mantra seems the most needed.  Bigger picture problem is that any mp usage that doesn't empty a character mid battle can be healed between battles with ether/tincture. That's a play style that maybe not everyone enjoys, but it does exist and kinda negates chakra outside of long single battles.

Not that you can't change chakra. By all means it might be right. I haven't played stam Sabin with the new cover yet, but I suspect its a small buff.

A big problem of Chakra is Stam Sabin's main draw is also build flexibility.
Of the ones who always appreciate medium/light chakra support on any build, we'd probably have Shadow and Relm(Thanks to Osmose nerf)... That's it. Shadow only for rerise spam, naturally.
Most other character either really don't need the support(Setzer, Strago), have easy and strong MP options or have different builds that don't care for MP as much.
For example, I run an Omega Weapon Terra and an Illumina Celes. Celes, even without Soul Box and rather few MP ELs, just does not need her MP a whole lot. Terra, on the other hand, has such easy access to big MP that I picked some up and, as she doesn't at all need to spam expensive spells thanks to Omega, she has little need for Chakra regardless.
Now, as I neither use X-Locke nor X-Mog... My toons need no chakra - Mana Battery does its job just as well.

So not only MP management options reduce Chakra's usability, but also build options of other characters. The AoE effect also makes Chakra feel like a glorified tincture or ether at times.

So yeah... Chakra can't stand as the main draw of Stam Sabin.

Using what we currently have for Stamina in general, C/C seems a strong options, yet greatly hampered by both equip needs and his low defence. Would there be an option to create an ability that gives Cover+Counter temporarily in battle, maybe paired with a damage reduction? Or maybe an item for Sabin that gives him at least Cover+reduced damage while covering(But not at other times). C/C naturally works with Stamina and feels like THE draw of Stamina in this game(Aside from special interactions).

I don't understand how Stamina Sabin is so consistently underrated.

I really need to get around to streaming a run of BNW to show off how good it can be.

I do agree that Fire Dance / Air Blade should be Stamina-based. They don't make sense to be Magic-based, and they almost never get used because of that.

C/C is definitely the good, universal use of stamina. Unfortunately, it's limited in application to peeps like Cyan, Celes, Umaro, Locke, and maybe Shadow. Excepting Terrato Sabin, Sabin just doesn't strike me as a useful Cover guy. My Force Robe suggestion certainly ain't helping stam Sabin be any better at C/C.

***

OK, being fair to the people who like stam Sabin, I'm trying to understand the tactical & strategic situations in which you do want him so that I can better pinpoint where I think the problem is.

To me, it seems like, painting with broad strokes, that there are three situations in which you want dedicated or semi-dedicated MP support.

• Using high-end, expensive, powerful magics without actually building the MP for it.
• Liberal use of said magics in long dungeon crawls, even on builds that build MP or manage their MP.
• Tech-switching a non-magic build over to magic spam for a particular (mini-)boss fight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think for most any other situation (such as an occasional re-charge in a boss fight), the answer is usually better MP management or using Ethers, maybe a slight bit of Chakra / Battery from a Figaro who didn't build for it. I don't mention X-Locke or X-Mog as their own thing because they fall into #1 or #2 by default.

#1 is probably the theoretical use for a dedicated Chakra / Battery specialist, but it also depends on whether or not the particular build in question is worthwhile, as well as how much is actually gained from going all-in, extreme magic power. X-Mog, for example, is the poster child for a character that "needs" MP support but just doesn't reward the player much for using him, whilst Mog has at least two other magical damage options (Dance, Rods) that are perfectly viable without stretching his MP at all. Terra benefits very little from even building Maduin to begin with, except for the semi-extreme scenario of building (semi-)pure Maduin for endgame Ultima spam, so she's also out. Relm can't even build her magic without building her MP, and Locke can only build MP. spd Relm counts, but then you have to factor in, what's the loss / gain of grabbing just a handful of Bahamut ELs. Setzer can build pure magic, but why? Rerise Shadow and Magic Gogo like the MP support, but I'm doubtful as to whether or not they're going completely all-in with spamming expensive magics. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Celes and Strago strike me as the only two characters with major potential benefit from going all-in with magic, although doing so for Celes turns her into a mini-Relm, sacrificing Celes' HP advantage. Oh, X-Locke likes MP support too.

#2 is definitely a solid use. It's an absolute game-changer for Terra, Locke, and Mog, and very helpful for Celes and Relm. Strago likes it for AoE, but he's also got strong & cheap ST damage options, a cheap AoE status setter, and X-Zone is somewhat inexpensive too. Other characters don't really care.

#3 is also a definitely solid use for people like Terra, Celes, Locke, and Mog. Also lets Shadow & Setzer be more liberal with MP usage for a particular fight. On the other hand, this is also definitely a scenario where one could argue for Ether support, or for only a semi-dedicated MP specialist (mag Edgar or hyb Sabin).

So, tech-switching and liberal use in randoms are solid enough uses, but it seems to be that those alone only argue for a semi-dedicated MP specialist; someone whose well-rounded, with various options, but who isn't totally dependent on providing MP support to the team just to justify his existence. IOW, good arguments for mag Edgar and hyb Sabin, but not for stam Sabin. Also, #3 alone is easily a case of "please use your Ethers". This does argue that stam Sabin is better buffed by making him more well-rounded (stam-based Mantra & Air Blade, Force Robe, ??? universal use for stamina ???), instead of any sort of straight buff to Chakra. Though making him more well-rounded still requires that he have some other "main draw" besides just Chakra.

So, it seems the main reason limiting a pure MP support specialist is the fact that few good mages honestly benefit from going all-in extreme with magic power / spamming high-end magic. Pure Shiva Celes / Strago and X-Locke are really the big ones, with Rerise Shadow & Magic Gogo as lesser ones, and X-Mog as the fail example. Also, if there's only one of said mages on your team, why not use mag Edgar instead, whose Battery is significantly stronger for a single-target than Chakra is? (And I haven't even touched on if hyb Sabin's good enough for the job even in these cases).

***

So, it's either do something to make MP-less mages more desirable (Mog especially), create a wider difference in power between "freebie" moves and moves that cost MP (could be either attacking or healing), more high-end magics and/or modifying MP cost on stuff to shift them over to high-end (...Cure 3?), make stam Sabin more well-rounded such that he doesn't need to absolutely spam Chakra just to justify his existence, or make more stuff cost MP (not happening).

Combining stam+Terrato doesn't strike me as a terrible idea anyway, though. But of course, Sabin's not made for covering - but he is really good at countering.
Hence I was asking for some possibilities: Like a Counter and/or Cover relic/equip with a dmg reduction while covering for Sabin. Or an in-battle move that grants Sabin Cover+Counter for a set amount of turns, along with dmg reduction and/or bonus to counter damage.
Naturally, both cover and counter would still be affected by stamina as normal to improve their chances. The dmg reduction or bonus dmg could scale with Stamina as well - making them undesirable for a Sabin that really doesn't want to cover.

Adding this kind of buffed cover for Sabin allows him to fill a more supportive role(Fitting Stam Sabin's Mantra and Chakra), while making him also a lot better at using counters than regular Sabin.
This doesn't need to be the only new thing for Stam Sabin, but it sounds pretty nice to me on paper - pushing him even further into "Support Sabin" territory... And not just "Living Battery".

How's this for a whack idea: what if taking damage slows you down (implemented as a small subtraction from nATB gauge, or small increase in action delay if waiting to act), and Stamina reduces the magnitude and/or likelihood of this penalty?

48 minutes ago, SirNewtonFig said:

How's this for a whack idea: what if taking damage slows you down (implemented as a small subtraction from nATB gauge, or small increase in action delay if waiting to act), and Stamina reduces the magnitude and/or likelihood of this penalty?

That's a fun one. Still would need the DR, just to keep Sabin alive during C/C stance. Difficult to say if that could be implemented, though.

Stray + Terrato is what I assume when I say stam Sabin. I generally think of a 10/10 split between the two. Terrato Sabin is more 20+ Terrato, maybe 15 Terrato with some minor bit of Stray.

Not liking trying to shoehorn stam Sabin in as C/C. Just doesn't seem to work. Would rather focus on stamina's role as a stat.

1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Stray + Terrato is what I assume when I say stam Sabin. I generally think of a 10/10 split between the two. Terrato Sabin is more 20+ Terrato, maybe 15 Terrato with some minor bit of Stray.

Not liking trying to shoehorn stam Sabin in as C/C. Just doesn't seem to work. Would rather focus on stamina's role as a stat.

I see.

As a stat itself, changing what it fundamentally does is a big and difficult discussion.
In terms of what it does for Sabin, we have already gone over how chakra could be changed plenty(or others, for that matter). For Mantra, easiest change would be self-heal and/or less HP scaling, more stam scaling. Less sources of AoE heal would work, too.
In terms of offence... He really doesn't need much - if anything at all. Having a Stam based AoE would be nice, but not necessary. Think Aurabolt could use a buff, but just a small one, and he'd be fine offensively.

So what he needs is something new. Having a "counter-stance"-like move would be pretty cool in differentiating stam Sabin, give him more supportive qualities and put the focus on his dual-wielded, elemental weapons. To compliment this, maybe more high-tier elemental weaponry could be added(To give him more choice). As he'd have a more unique C/C, this is not as boring as a solution as it seems, while still being strong and useful as a perk of a Stam Sabin build.

If this C/C idea is generally unwanted, though... We'd need something new - either on the stat itself or as an ability of stam Sabin. Do you have any ideas floating around? That "special cover" idea is really just the first that came to mind, thinking of his more supportive role and staminas general uses.

Accidental double post, sorry.

An idea for a new blitz is something similar to Cyan’s Retort from vanilla, which if I remember correctly was a guaranteed counter upon being attacked (physically).  Maybe Sabin’s new version of this would counter any form of damage with a stamina-based attack.  Looking here, logical name options are Dharma (truth) or Jhana (mental absorption, understanding), though there are lots of options.  Maybe the Air Blade animation is still used since he spins and that could be thought of as a reversal of the energy of the enemy’s attack.

It would be obscure, but if more of Sabin’s blitzes had meditation-related names, that would be interesting.  For instance, the five spiritual faculties could be used for his attacking blitzes: Faith=Saddha (Aurabolt), Energy=Viriya (Pummel), Mindfulness=Sati (Suplex), Concentration=Samadhi (Fire Dance), Wisdom=Panna (Bum Rush).  

2 minutes ago, SuperHario said:

An idea for a new blitz is something similar to Cyan’s Retort from vanilla, which if I remember correctly was a guaranteed counter upon being attacked (physically).  Maybe Sabin’s new version of this would counter any form of damage with a stamina-based attack.  Looking here, logical name options are Dharma (truth) or Jhana (mental absorption, understanding), though there are lots of options.  Maybe the Air Blade animation is still used since he spins and that could be thought of as a reversal of the energy of the enemy’s attack.

It would be obscure, but if more of Sabin’s blitzes had meditation-related names, that would be interesting.  For instance, the five spiritual faculties could be used for his attacking blitzes: Faith=Saddha (Aurabolt), Energy=Viriya (Pummel), Mindfulness=Sati (Suplex), Concentration=Samadhi (Fire Dance), Wisdom=Panna (Bum Rush).  

Very cool and fitting naming theme, as well as some good source of inspiration... I like it.
Think a Retort like counter, while simple, could work. However, due its substantial margin of  unreliability(Even with counter all), it needs to pack a serious punch.

Remember though that a 100% counter would pair really well with cover, as long as Sabin has enough HP to survive the attack.  

Slight tweak to the new blitz could be 100% counter, plus normal cover chance (100% for low HP allies, stamina chance for others), but only applies to physical attacks.  Then Sabin can C/C while having both relic slots available, albeit for the hefty price of using up a turn.

Edit: Realized you could equip the Black Belt and get a double counter chance, which would be pretty cool.

1 hour ago, SuperHario said:

Remember though that a 100% counter would pair really well with cover, as long as Sabin has enough HP to survive the attack.  

Slight tweak to the new blitz could be 100% counter, plus normal cover chance (100% for low HP allies, stamina chance for others), but only applies to physical attacks.  Then Sabin can C/C while having both relic slots available, albeit for the hefty price of using up a turn.

Edit: Realized you could equip the Black Belt and get a double counter chance, which would be pretty cool.

The price of a turn is a big one here and Sabin is just... not tanky enough to take multiple hits in a single turn, I feel. Surely, there's some super high HP setup - but that also requires another character being a dedicated healer to him.
Additionally, it would get a lot harder to focus on Stam ELs when you need to scramble absurd amounts of health together.

So~ I do not think traditional cover could work as easily. Too many hoops to jump through to make it work.
I still like the idea of retaliating with a Stamina-Based attack, although, it would be cool if Sabin would have a build that would put his claws into a bit more of a focus(A C/Cing Sabin would use them more than a Vig Sabin, despite the damage difference). A stamina based bonus multiplier to his normal counterattack could be an idea - or maybe just replacing Vig with Stam on the counter attacks.

So~ Would you want a C/C Sabin to be more of a tank for the team with respectable damage, or a damage dealer that happens to take hits for the team(With his counters being especially powerful as a damage dealing tool)?

As funnyman says, Stam Sabin implies a generous amount of Terrato, and a Royal Jacket or Red Cap (if Force Robe becomes a thing) give +25% to HP, so Stam Sabin will not be lacking HP.  Plus Golem gives the (slight) boost to PDef.  Could also give Sabin the option to equip Snow Muffler for more HP+ possibilities; he is a ‘bear’ after all and certainly a closer physical resemblance to Umaro than Gau or Gogo.

As to losing a turn, the ability to cover potentially saves a revival of an ally (making up for the lost turn), and putting a life bell on him could do wonders for not needing to dedicate a healer to him (even more so if Mantra sets regen, again to save a relic slot).  

With all these skills and using no relics (summon Golem, then self-cast Safe once it expires), Sabin with some status protection relics becomes pretty tanky, with respectable damage  (to answer your question), and is primarily there to facilitate the full activities of his allies.  This is his selfless monk build.  I see him best suited to supporting frail nukers (Relm, morphed Terra, X-mages), if you don’t want to bother with self MP management or using items.

2 hours ago, SuperHario said:

As funnyman says, Stam Sabin implies a generous amount of Terrato, and a Royal Jacket or Red Cap (if Force Robe becomes a thing) give +25% to HP, so Stam Sabin will not be lacking HP.  Plus Golem gives the (slight) boost to PDef.  Could also give Sabin the option to equip Snow Muffler for more HP+ possibilities; he is a ‘bear’ after all and certainly a closer physical resemblance to Umaro than Gau or Gogo.

As to losing a turn, the ability to cover potentially saves a revival of an ally (making up for the lost turn), and putting a life bell on him could do wonders for not needing to dedicate a healer to him (even more so if Mantra sets regen, again to save a relic slot).  

With all these skills and using no relics (summon Golem, then self-cast Safe once it expires), Sabin with some status protection relics becomes pretty tanky, with respectable damage  (to answer your question), and is primarily there to facilitate the full activities of his allies.  This is his selfless monk build.  I see him best suited to supporting frail nukers (Relm, morphed Terra, X-mages), if you don’t want to bother with self MP management or using items.

But... Why not use any of the other, better cover users then? But the direction sounds good regardless.
I simply do not think saving a relic slot is worth giving up too many turns. You can easily slap cover on any of the actually tanky characters - and they'll do it well enough.

Having this kind of C/C skill requires it to be actually good. Granted, many options for that. Not to mention, if he could only C/C physicals, he'd be very limited. Having him be able to cover single-target non-physicals would be a new and unique thing. DR while covering to actually make him survive and not go down in a few hits and stam-based claw counters, to put those more into the limelight in terms of the damage output of the build.

Cover Sabin really loves Death Ward(or the relevant Gaurd/Wall ring pre-Death Ward) and Regen, but can't have all three at the same time. I'm dubious whether auto safe & shell +regen would even be enough tankyness, but what that really means is I need to play this game again. Oh the humanity! Thankfully Regen is a fairly common spell so many teams will be able to buff him should he need it. Further proof that the father daughter dynamic duo is great for him with both regen and reraise spells each. Now if only he could get all of the above and counter because obviously Sabin needs EVERYTHING.

I’m not saying the other C/C options are not better, just trying to make Stam Sabin relatively viable since the verdict now is that he’s not.  And his use comes down to Kefka’s Tower, when you have to use nearly everyone, so the question is where would he best fit.  Other places, of course you can use others, that’s the case now and each player is going to have preferences about who to bring, with Stam Sabin being pretty low in the pecking order.

An alternative option to slightly improve Sabin’s cover capability is to put minor PDef and/or PEvade stats on his claws.  You could argue that the claws are like gauntlets, providing some protection, and he’s more agile with them relative to someone with a broad sword.  This latter point gets me thinking - is it possible to start with high PEvade and weapons reduce it by varying amounts?

As to Stam-based claw counters, this does not really fit thematically (Omega being the exception, of course).  But to make the new blitz more unique, I suppose it could be a Stam-based cover chance of any single target attack, and guaranteed counter with Stam-based damage.  If equipped with Black belt, I think it would only offer a claw counter chance in response to physical attacks, though (I.e., current practice).

For Hario's idea with the Retort-like Blitz, what if while in the "counter-ready" state, Sabin takes reduced damage based on his Stamina?

4 hours ago, SuperHario said:

I’m not saying the other C/C options are not better, just trying to make Stam Sabin relatively viable since the verdict now is that he’s not.  And his use comes down to Kefka’s Tower, when you have to use nearly everyone, so the question is where would he best fit.  Other places, of course you can use others, that’s the case now and each player is going to have preferences about who to bring, with Stam Sabin being pretty low in the pecking order.

An alternative option to slightly improve Sabin’s cover capability is to put minor PDef and/or PEvade stats on his claws.  You could argue that the claws are like gauntlets, providing some protection, and he’s more agile with them relative to someone with a broad sword.  This latter point gets me thinking - is it possible to start with high PEvade and weapons reduce it by varying amounts?

As to Stam-based claw counters, this does not really fit thematically (Omega being the exception, of course).  But to make the new blitz more unique, I suppose it could be a Stam-based cover chance of any single target attack, and guaranteed counter with Stam-based damage.  If equipped with Black belt, I think it would only offer a claw counter chance in response to physical attacks, though (I.e., current practice).

But Vig Sabin is strong already. That's the one stam Sabin really has to compete with in terms of powerlevel - and a very awkward counter wouldn't help.
I'd also oppose granting him more basic defence via claws. He has low defence, rather medium dodge.. but very high health. That's fine as it is.

Thematically, I do not see where there is really a disconnect. Stamina already being THE counter stat and all. As mentioned, bonus damage based on Stamina could also be possible. I just want to push claws more into the limelight, really. While they are plenty strong on Vig builds, you'd probably just Rush over them in most scenarios.

Sabin being low in the pecking order in general is fine, but Stam Sabin shouldn't be noticeably less desiraable than Vig Sabin(A very solid dps).

11 hours ago, Shax said:

Cover Sabin really loves Death Ward(or the relevant Gaurd/Wall ring pre-Death Ward) and Regen, but can't have all three at the same time. I'm dubious whether auto safe & shell +regen would even be enough tankyness, but what that really means is I need to play this game again. Oh the humanity! Thankfully Regen is a fairly common spell so many teams will be able to buff him should he need it. Further proof that the father daughter dynamic duo is great for him with both regen and reraise spells each. Now if only he could get all of the above and counter because obviously Sabin needs EVERYTHING.

He is bulky enough to not require the autos. Think Speed is a much more appreciated stat on Stam Sabin especially.

2 hours ago, JohnFuklaw said:

For Hario's idea with the Retort-like Blitz, what if while in the "counter-ready" state, Sabin takes reduced damage based on his Stamina?

Heh, that was my first idea that started this. Stamina based Damage Reduction while covering - this would rather clearly make this a Stam-Sabin only move.


But~ I think we fleshed out the idea a bit. Some kind of skill that allows Sabin to C/C with(maybe) stamina based DR and stamina based counter. I like the idea, as it fits for a monk-style character, is a special kind of C/C and cements stam Sabin more as a support Sabin. Now onto the details:
I'd be in favor of non-physical C/Cing, to give him something very special over any other cover user.
Additionally, duration is a question. As a runic-esque ability, it could work(last until any other action is taken). There is also the possibility to let it last for X C/Cs, or a set amount of turns -  or a combination of both. It could also become inactive once his health drops down to a certain stage.
How the counterattack should work is a small discussion point. Think it should be a stamina based counter - I'd personally like to incorporate claws, as the Vig build under-utilizes them(Except for weakness sniping/doom procs) - either replace vig with stam in the counter formula, or add stam based bonus damage for claws. A simple stam based counter works, too(Would look cool with Wind Slash animation). Another question is how damaging his counters should end up being. They could be the builds best offence and be rather damaging - the unreliable nature allows that. Could have a double-dipping problem(Stamina=Offence&Defence). Could also have a medium damage output, putting the defensive use at the forefront.

Hm, maybe we should create a poll, just to get a better feel for general reception on the idea.

I don’t think the claws are entirely ignored in a vig build if you use Berserk Sabin.

In the words of some of the children I've taught, ya'll are trippin' if ya'll think claws ain't used at all. Berserk + Elemental Claws = dead boss. Sabin can even berserk himself, IIRC. Also good for hammering a foe with low p.def. Or just for hitting a specific foe in a crowd instead of hoping Bum Rush does the right thing.

14 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

In the words of some of the children I've taught, ya'll are trippin' if ya'll think claws ain't used at all. Berserk + Elemental Claws = dead boss. Sabin can even berserk himself, IIRC. Also good for hammering a foe with low p.def. Or just for hitting a specific foe in a crowd instead of hoping Bum Rush does the right thing.

Hm, ya might be right. I tend to use claws for elemental sniping primarily and slapped a black belt onto Sabin. Can be useful vs multiple foes, too.
I view them more as a secondary damage tool. A decent tool nonetheless, but secondary. Tying the bulk of Stam Sabin's damage output to counters would make them more of a main damage output. But yeah, beserking vig Sabin is pretty strong - though, weaker than bumrush spam(when not elemental sniping) I'd wager...?

Pretty sure that, even without an elemental weakness, that berserk claws outdamage Bum Rush. Dunno by exactly how much, probably not by enough to be worthwhile when Bum Rush is all ready a good, untargettable attack. Too lazy to check right now.